Welcome back to Your Favorite Movie, an ongoing blog series in which we saw in half someone's favorite movie of all time, and then try to put it back together again.
This week, we smashed the locked water tank with an ax and freed Frank B******** just in the nick of time (christ, these introductory allusions to movies are getting more tortured by the week). I guess I remember meeting Frank? It had to have been during the drunken haze of a La Salle party. But I've always enjoyed running into him in the years since, and he absolutely seemed like a great candidate to partake in this movie blog project (more on why that is later).
Also Mandy B** is here, mostly because I was drinking with her before I met up with Frank, and I wanted to keep hanging out with her, even though she has never seen this movie. Let her be a stand-in for you, dear reader, if you haven't seen the movie either, but still for some reason want to read this interview anyway.
We gathered to discuss Frank's favorite movie, The Prestige, a magic film by Christopher Nolan, a director whom we've discussed a few times already. I was not familiar with this film prior to Frank's announcing it as his favorite, but man, was it a blast to watch.
Anyways, our interview is transcribed below, with Frank's permission, and edited slightly whenever Oscar's Tavern decided to randomly blast Good Charlotte. This has been the pledge, now let us begin the turn...
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Frank: I don't know about that. What, are we talking in general, like, it's okay to lie if you're a magician? Or more the idea of them fooling the audience, which is the whole point of being a magician?
Joe: They exist to lie to the people who are giving them money. And I guess we do that knowingly, giving them the money to lie to us. It's what we expect. But does that normalize lying?
Frank: No, I don't think so. Because it's part of the transaction. You see it more as entertainment. Which is part of the way that I read the movie, that it's about art and entertainment, all that stuff.
Joe: That's a good point.
Frank: Would you say a work of fiction is lying? You know that this is not a real story... even though there are real people in it. Like Nikola Tesla, who's a real person. I guess we have to do a spoiler warning, if we're going to talk about certain plot points in this interview. But once we get into the science fiction realm, it becomes fiction.
Joe: So "lying" is the wrong way to put it.
Frank: Yeah, I wouldn't say "lying." It's more of a challenge, like, "Can I be fooled? Can I be in a suspension of disbelief?"
Joe: And that definitely works on two levels, with us as an audience member for a magic show, and us as an audience member for the movie The Prestige. Which is pretty cool. I read that they tried to write this movie in a way that would follow the three steps of a magic performance. I forget what the first two are called.
Frank: The second one is "The Turn." The "meatcock," if you will. [laughter] [Editor's note: I have to assume that this was referring to a lost inside joke between me, Frank, and Mandy that occurred prior to the audio recorder being turned on, which means that the conversation had somehow already turned to penises in the fifteen minutes we were at Oscar's Tavern leading up to the movie conversation, which... wouldn't surprise me at all.]
Mandy: Who directed this movie?
Joe: Christopher Nolan.
Frank: I think this is the second one you've done for him?
Joe: The third. Last night I spoke with my sister about Interstellar.
Frank: Okay, cool.
Joe: I was just saying last night, this is the only director I've talked about where I've already seen more than fifty percent of his movies. Because he doesn't have a whole lot.
Mandy: Inception is beautiful.
Joe: What about this movie screams "Christopher Nolan" to you?
Frank: Well, for one thing, definitely the fact that it's... he tends to use the image of a clock, or at least the sound of a clock, in several of his movies. Well, he plays with time a lot. Memento, he plays with time, Interstellar, he plays with time. Inception, he plays with time. And even here, while he plays with time chronologically, how it's not in—
Joe: There was three different timelines going on.
Frank: Exactly. The movie starts near the end.
Joe: In media res.
Frank: You're watching a character read one character's diary, who's then reading that other character's diary in return. And they both have that moment of "gotchya" to the other character reading his diary. Plus, there's even the moment with Michael Caine's character, with the magic trick and the drowning moment. The clock—when the audience is waiting for the trick to be done, all you hear is the ticking of his clock, as he's like, "Do I have to jump in and save him?" Ya know, "Is this going to go right, or is it going to go wrong?"
Joe: I didn't think about that, the whole clock thing.
Frank: That's something he definitely plays around with a lot. That's a big, in my opinion, a big trademark of his movies.
Mandy: A "signature Nolan move."
Frank: Right. There's also... Michael Caine's presence—Nolan's called him in interviews "my lucky charm." Ever since the Batman movies, he's been in every single Nolan film.
Joe: And he's going to be in the new one too, I think.
Mandy: A new Batman?
Joe: Yeah, Batman 4! Jim Carey is reprising his role as the Riddler!
Mandy: I wish.
Joe: Whatever Nolan's new movie is next year. Probably something with clocks and space.
Frank: He also likes his mountains. I've seen different critics point that out, about the mountains. Even in this movie, he has the whole thing where Hugh Jackman's character goes to visit Tesla, it's in the mountains.
Mandy: There's a Tesla visit in this?
Joe: Yeah, David Bowie plays Tesla.
Mandy: No! What?!
Frank: I love Bowie as Tesla.
Mandy: I think I'm now going to finally watch this movie.
Frank: I think that was perfect casting. He's only in it for a little bit, but every scene he's in... man. It's not even like he's doing this great acting, he's just...
Mandy: Being Bowie.
Frank: He's Bowie, and he's magnetic. He just has that presence.
Joe: And why is that? Call me a Bowie skeptic.
Frank: A Bowie skeptic?!
Joe: Sell Bowie to me. I guess in terms of his acting.
Frank: I guess he just has "it." It's one of those things where it's intangible. I've talked to other people about this. Say you're talking about an athlete—"This person is meat-and-potatoes not great, but they can win games." It's the same thing with a performer. They have that presence. It's something that can't be measured. It's their personality. It's just simply charisma. And even when they're not trying to do it, it just exudes. You can tell that type of person just by looking at them.
Joe: That's fair. I mean, I didn't have a problem with him in this movie.
Frank: I'm not saying you have to like him, either his music or his acting. But I feel like you can't deny that he has charisma—that's a fact, it's not debatable. Whether or not you like his music, his style, any of that, that's purely opinion.
Joe: I dunno. I still don't know if I'm sold on him as an artist.
Mandy: Is it because of the social implications?
Joe: No. Why, what are the "social implications"?
Mandy: I think that he has come to face the brunt of some #MeToo claims.
Joe: Really? What?
Mandy: I honestly don't know the specifics. I have a very special place in my heart for David Bowie.
Joe: So you just didn't want to know?
Mandy: No, that's not true. I think a lot of it is from blur of the roadies lifestyle, in the time when the Rolling Stones were raping people. I don't know. He might've been there? I mean, he also was married to the same woman for twenty years. But he was also known to get it on with dudes too, that's another part of it.
[Editor's note: There's some rumblings online for sure, but nothing from any publication whose reputation is stirling, I'd say. Like, here's a listicle from a website I've never heard of, and that alleges that Bowie would have sex with kids frequently. This seems like a discussion for another day and another interview. Plus, Drew was right during the Beetlejuice interview—I do probably talk about this subject too much during Your Favorite Movie, so I'm glad it didn't go too far here.]
Mandy: He has an ambiguity to him that seems more human, if that makes any sense? Also... he has two different colored eyes.
Frank: Yeah, what do you call that? One's blue and one's green, right?
Joe: I'll put a note here. [Editor's note: heterochromia iridis]
Mandy: We also have the same birthday.
Joe: That's why you like him so much?
Mandy: No, but it's helpful.
Frank: Next, we're going to find out you have the same birthday as Jason Segal too.
Mandy: No, his is September 22nd. It just passed. It was just his birthday.
Joe: Okay... speaking Mandy being a twin, let's talk about the twist at the end. Do you feel like that was a successful twist? Did it get you the first time you watched it?
Frank: Yes and no. I feel like it wasn't... here's one thing I really like about the movie. In a way, you could say the twist, or the reveal, is really nothing. It's foreshadowed pretty clearly.
Joe: Definitely, if you looked back, you could see it.
Frank: I actually just watched it again for the first time in a while last night, just so it was fresh in my mind. I also wanted to see how well it held up, because it's something I've said was one of my favorite movies for years. And while I don't necessarily think it's my number one favorite, it's definitely always been in my top five—
Joe: Well, we're assuming for the purposes of this interview that this is your favorite movie of all time, so don't fucking go back on it now! We're fifteen minutes into the conversation!
Frank: [laughter] Fair enough.
Joe: But did this twist land for you the first time you watched it?
Frank: The first time I watched it, yes. Not in the way of, "I'm surprised," but—
Joe: You weren't surprised?!
Frank: Here's the thing. The whole movie, all the characters are telling you that it's a twin. Literally from the moment the trick is first performed—
Joe: But not literally a twin.
Frank: No, literally the moment the trick appears, Michael Caine says "He's using a double."
Joe: A double. Well, Hugh Grant used a double, and—I know it was Hugh Grant also playing him, but it was supposed to be some random fucking schmo they pulled off the street, not his twin.
Frank: Hugh Jackman, not Hugh Grant.
Joe: [laughter] Yeah, that guy. Yup.
Mandy: Where was the first time you saw it? In theaters?
Frank: No, on TV, actually.
Mandy: With commercials?!
Frank: Yeah. And the other thing is, the very first time I ever saw it, I had missed the beginning, but I stayed watching it, because it just captivated me. I was in high school.
Joe: You missed the in media res of Hugh Jackman dying.
Frank: Right. But I started with the actual beginning, essentially. Where the story actually starts before that. For me, I felt like I was missing something in terms of Hugh Jackman's character, and what happens to him—I feel like that was a bigger reveal, when we find out what happened to him. When he shows up as Lord Caldlow, and it's like, "Oh shit, he's not dead." By that point, there were several clues that something fishy was going on. The reveal for me isn't that Christian Bale's character is using a twin. He talks about that all the way back when he's able to guess the fishbowl trick. He immediately guesses, "He's faking his whole life." And later on, we find out that's what he's been doing this whole time. On a rewatch, it feels obvious, but not so in-your-face obvious that it hurts it. It actually improves the movie, because you can try to guess which twin is in each scene.
Joe: So let's ask the twin in the room, Mandy. Do you feel like—even though you and Michael do not necessarily look alike— [laughter]
Mandy: Not at all.
Joe: But say you did look identical. Do you feel like you could live one life, and continually trade off?
Mandy: I do feel like we have personality traits that we share. But, given the opportunity to trade each other's lives? We probably could pull it off. If parents weren't a factor. We're both very good on our feet, and can kind of bullshit as we go. And I feel like that's a quality that not a lot of people have.
Joe: It's a twin thing?
Mandy: It's our twin thing. In terms of "twin things," I think we're just more siblings than anything else.
Frank: I was going to say—spoiler alert!—are you close enough that you'd lose a finger to share one life?
Joe: Yeah, if Mike lost two of his fingers, would you also chop off your fingers to complete the illusion?
Mandy: I think it would depend on the circumstances? I'm not completely against it. But I think, from the gate, probably... no.
Joe: That's fair.
Frank: That's the line, huh?
Mandy: I've never seen the movie.
Joe: It's a crazy ass movie.
Mandy: I need to see it. I've seen someone else give an impassioned presentation about this movie.
Joe: Tell us about the presentation.
Mandy: I was doing a public speaking class at La Salle before I went to La Salle, so I was still a senior in high school, but I ended up there, for reasons unknown. We had to present on a book that was made into a movie, and this person chose The Prestige. He was an eccentric character in my class. But he gave an impassioned presentation on how much he loved it.
Joe: You don't remember any details about the movie from that presentation?
Mandy: No—
Joe: Shameful.
Mandy: —because I don't think he did... that well...
Joe: [laughter] You hear that, asshole, you didn't know shit about The Prestige!
Mandy: It was more fanboy-ing about the takeaways from it.
Joe: Mandy mentioned that it was a movie based on a book. Are you familiar with the book?
Frank: No, I'm not, actually. Apparently I've been told the movie's better than the book. One of the rare occasions that people say that.
Joe: I'm always interested in how the structure of each is different. Apparently the book consisted of just the diaries of the main characters, and each chapter was alternating chapters from each diary.
Frank: I could definitely see how it works as a book. It works as a movie too. You talked about before about it being based on the three steps of a magic act—the "pledge," the "turn," and the "prestige"—and I don't know if the movie follows it that well, or that strictly. Because early on, it's like, here's the pledge. Here's the mystery. The first scene, one of the two main characters dies, and the other one is framed for his murder, and is being sentenced to death. It's like, "Well, it doesn't seem like there's much farther to go from here!" The "pledge" is supposed to be the "make something disappear," and then the "prestige" is when you bring it back. It's the reveal. I don't know. I just feel like the pledge takes a long time, if that's really what they're going for.
Joe: Sure.
Frank: I just don't agree with... I don't think it's successful. And that's why I call this movie a "favorite" as opposed to the "best." I've had this conversation with other people—"Do you think your favorite movies are 'the best'?" And I guess that's why I like this blog thing you're doing.
Joe: So this is your favorite.
Frank: But I wouldn't call it "the best." I would definitely go with other movies. That's why I can criticize this movie; it has flaws. But it just personally speaks to me.
Joe: How so?
Frank: Certain themes of the movie, like "obsession." I can be very... at times, I have tunnel vision on things, and can get very focused on certain things. Hugh Jackman's character, especially, being so obsessed with how Christian Bale does the trick. The whole reason he started is because of his wife's death, and then at one point he literally says, "I don't care about my wife." It's like, "Woah."
Joe: It's a dark turn for him.
Frank: It's like, "What happened?" All of sudden, this is what he's living and dying for, figuring out this trick.
Joe: So how do you relate to that? What are you obsessed with?
Frank: Well, my wife drowned... [laughter]
Joe: My goodness!
Frank: More that I can relate, on a creative level, having tunnel vision on something.
Joe: Here's a quote, and it's referring to the audience at a magic show. It was probably Michael Caine that said it. "The audience wants to be fooled." Is that... we'll first start, is that true of a magic show audience?
Frank: Oh, and it's definitely true of a movie. That's why I feel like this movie—this and Inception—are two movies that are actually about "movies." Or, they're about the relationship between a filmmaker, or a storyteller, and his or her audience. This one especially is... if you put it in the context of filmmakers—Jonathan Nolan, who co-wrote the movie, Christopher Nolan's brother, created the show Westworld, based on the movie by Michael Creighton.
Joe: Did he really? I didn't realize that was him who created that show.
Frank: Yeah, he's the showrunner.
Joe: Wow, awesome!
Frank: Both seasons have big twists at the end, big shocking reveals. I remember reading an article, on the AVClub or something, where they discuss that you can go back to The Prestige, and it's like, "Is this story for the audience or for the creator? Is this for me or for them?" and "Are you trying to fool them for the sake of 'I feel smart for fooling you,' or for the sake of, 'Oh wow, that caught me off guard, that's fun, that gave me something "new"?'" Even in the movie, they talk about it, with Christian Bale saying, "They're not pushing boundaries! There's nothing new!" If you just replace "magic" with "movies"—
Joe: Ah.
Frank: —we could be having this conversation right now, like about Hugh Jackman saying, "No, it's old favorites, that's what the audience likes, they sell it for a reason, you just gotta put something new in it, and it'll do well," and Bale is like, "No, do something different! Do something that hasn't been done before!"
Joe: Is that true of movies in general? That if an audience is "fooled" when they are watching a movie, that they tend to enjoy it more?
Frank: I feel like you have to look at the success of movies with a big shocking ending. Like Us, for example, from this year.
Mandy: I don't think that was that shocking.
Frank: I agree, but I know plenty of people who were caught off guard by it.
Joe: But, like... let's just use other movies that I've already talked to people about. There's been plenty of sequels. When my brother-in-law was watching The Two Towers, I don't think he was necessarily shocked by what he was watching. And yet it is his favorite movie of all time.
Frank: And that's the thing, going back—it's an "old favorite."
Joe: Okay. I'm not saying one is right or wrong, it's just two different arguments, either "Give me the new, and keep pushing," or, "No, here's something comfortable, something that looks new but is familiar enough that it's comfortable."
Mandy: And you've already invested emotion in the first movie, when you're talking about people who like the sequel. It's an anticipation. The Godfather II, which most people prefer over Part I. A lot of people with Rocky... maybe not as much with Rocky... [laughter]
Joe: Let me think of different kind of example. What about my pops who's favorite movie of all time was The Big Chill? He wasn't watching The Big Chill being shocked by what it was presenting. He was watching the life he was currently living. Compared to the quote, "Audiences want to be fooled." Do they really want to be fooled?
Frank: We're talking about a suspension of disbelief. Whenever we're talking about a story or a movie—usually a movie, because you're watching it—if you're talking about a book, you talk about how engrossing it is, how sucked into that world you are. If you're watching a movie, you're talking about your suspension of disbelief, because you want to forget that you're watching a movie. You want to be almost you're—not in it, but you want to forget about everything else that's going on. Say you had a bad day, say you had a flat tire, your check is late from work... and then you're watching a movie. You can put everything aside, if the movie has done its job in fooling you into forgetting everything else in your life.
Joe: So that's the "trick" that movies pull.
Frank: A good movie should suck you into it, should pull your attention. You shouldn't be checking your phone, or think, "How much longer is there?" That's a good story in general.
Joe: So in a broader sense, do you feel like humans want to be "fooled" in their daily lives? Like, is it easier to be a fool in real life? [laughter] I know that's a bad way of putting it...
Frank: I think people just want escapism. You know how I talked about "obsession"? People don't want to be obsessed, having it cloud their judgment and have it be the only thing they're thinking about. Whether it's a movie or whatever, entertainment in general is a good distraction. Distraction always has a negative connotation—"Oh, you're distracted, you're not focusing"—but we all need to be reminded of other things, and we need to relax. It helps us reset. That's the way I view it, at least. Movies can be art or entertainment, and they both have merit. The best movies are both. They can have something you gain from it on an emotional level, but also entertain you, and distract you, like, "I'm not studying this, I'm just in the story."
Joe: I guess I was more thinking about it how, ya know, they do studies about how the less intelligent you are, the happier you are, right?
Frank: The less you're thinking about something...
Joe: So is that a good thing? To want to be fooled?
Frank: I think it's neutral thing, really. I wouldn't say it's a good or bad. I just think it's something we desire and kind of need. I think that's a weird way of phrasing it, like, "Dumber people are happier!" I don't even think that's necessarily the truth.
Joe: I don't know. Science points that way, but you're right, it's a bad way of putting it. [Editor's note: Also, science does not point that way. A couple secondary sources HERE and HERE.]
Frank: If you're not thinking all the time... I notice in other discussions of other movies that you always bring up socio-political aspects of each movie.
Joe: I was trying to avoid that, because I don't want to bring that shit up every single time, but you're right, that is exactly what I'm thinking right now. [laughter] trump supporters are probably happier! Because they just don't fucking know!
Mandy: I mean, that's definitely true. "Ignorance is bliss" for a reason.
Joe: That's exactly the phrase I'm referring to, I think.
Frank: They don't have to think that much, so they're not thinking, ya know, "the consequences of my actions." Is Congress going to fuck me in a couple years? That type of thing. Are we going to have catastrophic climate change in five years? That's the things that they aren't thinking about.
Joe: Do you think the movie had a negative view of its audience?
Frank: No, I don't think so. I wouldn't say that. It may speak a little matter-of-factly. Even though they use the word "fool," they're not calling the audience "fools." They're just saying, "we want to surprise, and keep them guessing." I feel the movie talks way more about the creative side. It's almost like the Batman movies—he did The Prestige in between the first and second movies—you get that type of training montage here, like the Batman movies or maybe the Rocky movies, where he's getting his new gadgets...
Joe: Oh, with that cage thing that goes up into his sleeves?
Frank: Yeah. You're seeing him train. You're seeing the behind-the-scenes aspect of it—here's the work, here's the blood, sweat, and tears put into it, all to put on a show that the audience is going to enjoy. Well... you hope they enjoy.
Joe: Do you feel like the movie does a disservice to magicians, in that it may reveal some secrets, perhaps?
Frank: It's funny, I did a book report for this in college.
Joe: Really? What class? Let's put this on the record, what La Salle professor?
Frank: I'm trying to think. I wanna say... fuck, I don't remember. I had Bill Wine three times—
Mandy: I love Bill Wine.
Frank: —but I don't think it was him.
Mandy: I had Bill Wine twice.
Joe: You're talking to a psych major here. I don't know this person.
Mandy: I was a psych major too.
Joe: That's right!
Frank: I'm pretty sure it was freshman year.
Joe: What was the paper about? What was the thesis statement of your paper?
Frank: The only thing I remember about the paper was that I had to research what critics were saying at the time. Roger Ebert, on his website, he had a positive, three-star review, but the review itself was somewhat negative. He was critical of the "magic" of it. He barely talked about the movie itself, it was more like "Oh, it wasn't what I wanted."
Mandy: Wait, you were going to mention before this. Besides The Illusionist, what was the other magic movie that year?
Joe: Scoop?
Frank: Oh, Scoop. Wasn't that Woody Allen?
Joe: No fucking clue.
Frank: I don't know if I'd call that a "magic" movie...
Joe: I didn't really look into it. Certainly won't be, now that I know it was Woody Allen.
Mandy: Who was in The Illusionist?
Frank: Edward Norton, Paul Giamatti and Jessica Biel.
Joe: I think Dwyer's girlfriend said that was her favorite movie, so we might be talking about that eventually in this column.
Mandy: Maybe I'm mistaking this whole memory of that guy presenting in class. Maybe he did The Illusionist.
Joe: Wow. You fucked up!
Mandy: I'll let you know...
Joe: So Frank, you have a personal connection to The Illusionist, I hear?
Frank: So, I worked with the director of The Illusionist, Neil Burger, who directed two movies in Philadelphia. Limitless, which was before I started working in the film industry—
Joe: That's okay if that's on the record? No NDA?
Frank: Well, the movie's out there already. The other movie, one that I did work on, was called The Upside. It was the movie Bryan Cranston and Kevin Hart did back in early 2017. Burger directed that, and that's where I met him. That's my connection, that I was working for the director.
Joe: So here's the "prestige" of this interview, that Frank works in the movie industry. That's what we've been holding close to our chests until this point. And I feel like there will be some insight from that, like, what makes The Prestige special? What makes movie-watching in general special? So, you have a relationship, however small or large, with The Illusionist's director. Does that change your opinion about the rival magic movie of that year?
Frank: Not really. I'll say this—for movies I've worked on, I'll admit, they are movies I am less critical of, because I know what went into it. I have more insight into why things are the way they are, whether it was on the script level, or the production level, or which actors were available on which days, what was... Fuck, I worked on a movie where the lead actor had a serious injury, and we had to work around the fact that the actor had a broken leg. So there were a lot of things, like the actor had to be sitting or not moving much, so as not to reveal that he had a broken leg. [laughter]
Joe: Creed 2?!
Frank: No. This was an indie film. The actor, if I said his name, you would know him, so that's why I can't say that.
Joe: So what about being a behind-the-scenes person in the movie industry makes you appreciate The Prestige more?
Mandy: If anything.
Frank: Part of it is that they are showing the behind-the-scenes aspects of the magic tricks. There's a lot there—for one thing, I really like the art design of it. I love the look of it. It's a period piece. The reason period pieces win Oscars a lot is that there's a lot more work put into it, building the sets, making the wardrobe. I've worked in all those different departments at certain points, whether in big or small projects. You find out how tough all that work can be. Especially a movie where... I've never actually worked on a movie that had one actor in two different roles. Well, actually! ...No, never mind...
Joe: You were just about to break an NDA?
Frank: Yeah. [laughter] Sorry. Back on track...
Joe: But how do you imagine it went? What's the process for this type of movie that two actors playing two different roles each?
Frank: Usually, you'd have to use a body double, and this is a thing where I'd actually kind of know how they'd do it. We have stand-ins and photo doubles. I would know, "This is when you bring this person in." Usually you're not seeing the face. You have a digital VFX guy come in on the set, they take the pictures, they size it up, get the lighting right... it's a big process. It's a matching game. It's interesting.
Joe: Sounds interesting.
Frank: But this is a movie is interesting in that it's very claustrophobic, I've noticed. The cinematography, at least. There's not a lot of wide shots. I don't know if you noticed or not.
Joe: This is absolutely not something I would notice. This is why I appreciate your expertise.
Frank: It tells me that there wasn't a lot of on-set work. They didn't do a lot on-location, they probably did a lot of sound stage. A controlled environment. Working on a sound stage is a whole lot better than working on location. Especially when you're working in Philadelphia and everyone gets pissed off that you're blocking fucking Spruce Street or something.
Joe: What, people are beeping their car horns?
Frank: When cars are beeping, then it becomes a noise issue—"now we gotta wait until the car's gone so we can record sound!" And you end up working a fifteen hour day!
Joe: Were you recording around Rittenhouse Square?
Frank: ...Maybe.
Joe: [laughter]
Mandy: Everyone was at Washington Square.
Joe: Was it Washington Square? Frank's not allowed to say one way or the other.
Mandy: I was walking by the [edited so Frank doesn't get fucked by his movie overlords from this]...
Joe: There was a Reddit post that was titled, "Is there a movie being shot in Philly?" And it was clearly a picture of Frank looking at cameras. [laughter] Did you see that?
Frank: Yeah, everyone was sending that to me. I'm also looking at the camera because... well okay, here's the picture.
[We look at the picture, though the comments regarding the details of the picture are cut from this transcription.]
Joe: Oh, this is a different picture than I saw.
Frank: Really? I didn't know there was another one. I will say that we have had to deal with the paparazzi. One of the guys was cool, there were two other guys that were less cool.
Joe: I'm going to keep spinning this back to The Prestige.
Frank: Okay, let's get back to it.
Joe: ...What do you think the paparazzi looked like on the set of The Prestige? [laughter]
Mandy: That's not even a real question.
Joe: Who played the flute on the sound stages of The Prestige? [laughter]
Mandy: Was there really a flute?
Joe: Yeah, everyone's favorite OutKast member, Big Boi, plays it.
Frank: That's actually something I would be critical about The Prestige about. I think the soundtrack kind of sucks on this one.
Joe: Yeah?
Frank: And I'm someone who really likes soundtracks. I think Interstellar has a really good soundtrack. I think Inception has a good soundtrack. If we're talking other Nolan films. Prestige soundtrack is just forgettable.
Joe: Who did this one?
Frank: Usually Nolan uses Hans Zimmer on his bigger things, but not on this. I'd have to look up who it was, it wasn't someone I'm familiar with. [Editor's note: David Julyan] And it's not necessarily bad. It fits for the movie. The cues where it's dramatic, or sad... it fits.
Joe: See, that's not something I would notice either, so I'm glad you're bringing this up.
Mandy: Really? That's shocking.
Joe: I'm not sitting there listening to fucking tones or whatever.
Frank: The last thing I worked on, I was in post-production, and I had to listen to the score for a TV show, or at least the tent music—what goes in before the actual music—and even then, I had to catalog different music cues. Usually they want you to stick to a certain theme. With TV more so than film. You want to have a theme that's familiar, so you think about this character when this cue shows up, that type of thing. I can't really remember all that much from The Prestige. Probably just that moment when it gets to the end, the screechy, murder mystery-type music. I can't remember any other music cues. And you have fucking David Bowie in this, who should've done the fucking soundtrack!
Joe: I talked with Frank about Life Aquatic, so we covered the David Bowie soundtrack thoughts.
Frank: That's a great soundtrack. I obviously like Prestige better than Life Aquatic, but I'll admit what has a better soundtrack. And again, that's why I'll say Prestige is my "favorite," and not "the best." The best movie would be one that has a great soundtrack, great cinematography, just across the board. But we're talking about my favorite.
Joe: Let's get keep diving into this whole movie industry thing.
Frank: Okay.
Joe: Why doesn't your IMDB page have a picture?
Frank: Maybe I want to remain anonymous?
Joe: You're doing a bad job, since I am audio recording you right now.
Frank: [laughter] Because it costs money to do put a picture in there.
Joe: Yeah, what's up with that? IMDB Pro? I thought it would be funny if I could add a picture of you before this interview.
Frank: Did you? I haven't checked.
Joe: No. Like you said... you have to pay money. [laughter] I'm not paying money for that. I'll buy your beers, but I'm not paying money to add a fucking picture to a fucking IMDB page.
Frank: Pro is for people's agents and assistants to update, so they can control what's out there, what isn't.
Joe: So let's compare The Prestige to some movies on your IMDB page. The ones that you don't have NDAs for. Maybe. I don't know. Let's find out.
Frank: Well, most of them are out there already.
Joe: You were the parking guy for one of them, right?
Frank: Yeah, I was a Parking P.A. on the first Creed film.
Joe: So how are Creed and The Prestige connected?
Frank: Uh... I don't think they are connected at all. [laughter]
Joe: Bullshit.
Frank: Both are about a guy trying to avenge someone?
Joe: Yes!
Frank: Let's go with that.
Mandy: Was that the right answer?
Joe: There's no right answer, but it was a good answer that I liked to hear.
Mandy: Okay.
Frank: I'll take that as a win.
Joe: What about the other one? The Shyamalan one?
Frank: Split?
Mandy: What did you do on Split?
Frank: I only worked three days. Again, I was a Parking P.A. In Glass, I was in three different departments, but credited as "Parking Coordinator."
Joe: How are Split and/or Glass connected to The Prestige?
Frank: I guess both on Wikipedia are described as "psychological thrillers"?
Joe: There ya go. Perfect. How about your only acting credit—"Park Person" in Not Yet?
Frank: Oh, the short film that my buddy did?
Joe: Sure. [laughter] How is Not Yet connected to The Prestige?
Frank: How is the short film my friend made...?
Joe: Yes. What was Not Yet about?
Frank: Actually...
Joe: Give a one sentence summary.
Frank: A woman with an illness—her husband is dealing with the fact that she has an illness, and has this fantasy about her getting better, while there's an uncertainty about whether she'll actually get better or not. [Editor's note: Watch it HERE. Frank steals the show.]
Joe: How is that like The Prestige?
Frank: I mean... the wife dies.
Joe: [laughter] Yeah!
Frank: Spoiler alert. [laughter] Actually, I don't know if should mention this, but The Prestige doesn't pass the Bechdel Test.
Joe: There's no scene of two women talking when they're not talking about a man.
Frank: There's only three women characters with names, and they're all basically girlfriends or wives. They're not bad characters. Two of them in particular, Scarlett Johansson and Rebecca Hall, their characters get some good acting moments.
Joe: Is that something that Christopher Nolan struggles with?
Mandy: Yes.
Frank: That's actually something that I've read up about. There's a criticism that he doesn't write women well. A lot of his movies, he tends to go with the film noir-style "femme fatale." A lot of his women are untrustworthy. So that's a criticism for him as a director, I don't know. But I'll save judgment, because... I'd like to work with him someday, maybe! It's just one of those things where... fine, if you want to talk about a movie I did work on—Split. Most of the characters are women.
[Off-the-record comments about Glass.]
Joe: Do you feel like the two shorts that you created—Waiting for Hope, or A Night like This—do you feel like they have anything to do with The Prestige? Any even slight connection? Or influence?
Frank: Let me think... well, a couple argues in Waiting for Hope, just like the couple arguing in The Prestige, there's a connection, right?
Joe: ...Sure!
Frank: Actually, ya know what? They both feature British actors. Chloe Carroll is the lead in both of those films, she's actually British. And there are a lot of British actors in The Prestige, because it takes place in the UK, I believe.
Joe: Old-timey London.
Frank: Good ol' Michael Caine with his...
Joe: Cockney accent.
Mandy: I love him. Gotta love him.
Joe: And before the one twin was hung, they were like, "The queen sentences you to death," and at that point I was like, "Oh shit, I forgot that this takes place a while ago..."
Frank: I like the design. I love the look of the prison, how it's very cubed, all the bars. I dunno, it's just something I like, that type of look. It's a very dark movie. I'm also curious how they were able to do this, practically—the scene with the light bulb. He's visiting Tesla—and Andy Serkis, in a non-CGI role, plays Tesla's assistant—and they're showing the light bulbs in the ground, and he puts one back in, and it pops on. I'm assuming there was probably a socket underneath the ground? That's probably how they did it. I'm curious how the special effects team did that. I also know the difference between VFX, which is the digital stuff, and special effects, which is like making it rain and all that stuff... I said that in a bragging sense, but really I didn't mean it that way. Sorry... I'm noticing that I'm speaking differently after drinking a few. [laughter]
Joe: Nah, it's definitely interesting hearing you speculating on how they made this movie. Because that's not the type of shit I usually get in these interviews. Usually, it's "This is a movie that was made and I appreciate it in x, y, and z ways." You are coming from a movie-creating view, and it's interesting.
Frank: And that's why I love this movie. I'm a filmmaker myself—very much small-time, I've only done two short films, but I'm trying to do more. I'm in the industry. The movie is about the relationship between the auteur and their work. I love that sense of... that's why I like Inception too, because it's similar to that. The audience would be Cillian Murphy's character—have you seen Inception?
Mandy: Many times.
Frank: So they're going into Cillian Murphy's dreams... he's basically the audience, and the rest are basically a filmmaking crew, you could argue. That was my first big eureka—"I'm a film critic! I know how to watch film!" I had seen The Prestige already, but I went back later, and I appreciated it more, and that's why it's stayed with me. I have that personal connection. It's one I can watch whenever it's on. It can be in the background, or I can seriously watch it. There's something to gleam both entertainment-wise and intellectually, emotionally, thematically.
Joe: I feel like you touched on it earlier, how the magic show relates to "the magic show of a movie being created." In fact, on January 21, 2012, you said, in a Facebook status, "Watching The Prestige again after seeing Hugo greatly increases my appreciating of the allusions to magic shows and film that both movies display."
Mandy: Wow.
Frank: Here's the thing... I didn't remember ever typing that until you read it. Also... how much digging did you do?!
Joe: I just Facebook searched.
Frank: This is the real reveal, the actual "prestige." Joe K*** is a real reporter! [laughter]
Mandy: We already knew that, I thought.
Frank: During your Vinny Vella interview, you were trying to be like, "Vinny is a real reporter, I'm nothing but a blogger!"
Joe: Here's my favorite part about that Facebook status. There were no likes, and one comment. And the comment just said, "Tesla bitch." [laughter]
Frank: Oh my god.
Joe: So my question is... are you a Tesla bitch? [laughter]
Mandy: Do you have a Tesla?
Frank: I don't have a Tesla.
Joe: This status was in 2012, before Tesla cars were even a thing.
Frank: The movie actually tries to draw parallels between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison. I'm from New Jersey, which is where Edison is from.
Joe: Ah, okay! So you're empathizing with the villain! With the true villain of the movie!
Frank: ...Nikola Tesla had some great ideas. Watch, after I say this, and you post it, it's gonna come out—"Nikolai Tesla was a terrible human being! A trump supporter!" Like, "What? trump wasn't even around then, how is that possible?"
Joe: Well, Tesla was a time-traveler, apparently. Do you feel like the unbelievable science in The Prestige takes you out of it at all?
Frank: No, I actually kind of like how it twists genres a bit. At first it was a historical drama. I love movies that you can't classify as one particular genre. I actually try to make things like that. A Night like This, trying to tell people what it was about was like—"Eh, it's kind of a crime... western... supernatural thing?" A long winded way of saying it's, I dunno, entertainment? So The Prestige is one where you're like, do you call it a "psychological thriller"? That's what Wikipedia calls it, and anyone can edit Wikipedia.
Joe: I trust Wikipedia.
Frank: Of course. We all use it for book reports.
Joe: Book reports about The Prestige!
Frank: But anyway... The whole thing when they are trying to draw parallels between Thomas Edison and Nicholas Tesla. Just that whole obsessive "I'll kill you!" thing, the rivalry escalating. It creates progress, but it can also be self-destructive. We see that literally when Tesla's lab gets burned down. In the movie, we see both main characters technically die, even though one of them gets to walk away...
Mandy: Wait, is this movie actually about Tesla?
Frank: No, he's a supporting character. He's not minor, but in the scope of the film—
Joe: David Bowie can't carry a movie!!
Frank: Hey, ask Labyrinth. Who said Labyrinth was their favorite movie?
Joe: Hopefully no one!
Mandy: You hate Bowie! Why?!
Joe: I don't hate Bowie. I'm just skeptical.
Mandy: Does someone die at the end of this movie?
Frank: ...Yes. Spoiler alert. Kind of? Should I be spoiling this?
Joe: I'm cutting all this shit! I'm not going to include someone saying, "What happens in this movie? I've never seen it!" [Editor's note: Changed my mind.]
Mandy: I can still watch it after knowing what happens.
Joe: You're brought some valuable insights to this interview... but this is not that.
Mandy: Okay, fine.
Frank: But you're okay with spoilers?
Mandy: Yeah, do it. Go ahead.
Joe: No, don't indulge her! Watch it tonight!
Frank: I was going to say, though... Would you say this movie is spoiler-proof? Like I said, halfway through the movie, Michael Caine tells you what's revealed at the end. But the main character doesn't believe it.
Joe: No, there's more to it though. I don't think Michael Caine spoils it at all.
Frank: You talking as if the big reveal is that Christian Bale has a twin.
Joe: A real, biological twin.
Frank: But I feel like it's more the nature of Hugh Jackman being alive, and the science fiction element is the big revelation that changes everything, the big twist.
Joe: Look, I had never even heard of this movie before you said it was your favorite. I don't think there's people talking about it.
Frank: To be fair, whenever I tell people this is my favorite movie, they always say, "Oh yeah, that was a good movie." Everyone agrees that it's a good movie, but a lot of people forget about it.
Joe: Well you probably surround yourself with people who also watch a lot of movies, right?
Frank: Probably.
Joe: I am not that person. That's why I'm trying to watch more movies. I'm glad I watched The Prestige. It was a good-ass fucking movie.
Frank: I'm happy that I got you to enjoy a movie.
Joe: I'm appreciative.
Frank: And this is the part where you rip it to shreds?
Joe: Ha! Sure! How about how Scarlett Johansson could've had a more active role in this?
Frank: I feel like they just used her as the eye candy. They even say on the stage that her character is supposed to be that. She gets a couple good moments! But that goes back to the whole thing in which only three of the characters are women. One of them is the wife who gets killed off. One of them is Scarlett Johansson—she's a big name, and has a lot of screen time, but she doesn't do a whole lot. She has the pivotal moment, plot-wise, when she tricks Hugh Jackman, the double- or triple-agent thing. But you forget about her in the back half of the movie. She just disappears.
Joe: Is that the point? She's the magician's "lady that disappears"? She's cut in half?
Frank: Ehhhhhh... I don't know about that.
Joe: But there's no "prestige." She doesn't come back.
Frank: The movie failed it's magic act! Because they didn't bring her back! Fuck... I'm supposed to be saying this is good.
[laughter]
Frank: I mean, it's a great movie. But there are things that could be better, obviously. But going back—Rebecca Hall gets some good moments. The problem is that her character is very reactive. She just gets to react to the dual lives of Christian Bale.
Mandy: I love Rebecca Hall. She's so underrated.
Frank: She should be in more things. Everything I've seen her in, she's been solid, but she always gets the type of girlfriend role. Like, in The Town, it was the same thing—she's just the girlfriend. She did really well, and same thing here, she has some really good moments, but... just give her something better! [Editor's note: I've never seen The Town and I don't feel like the rest of this line of discussion warrants any research, so—CUT.]
Joe: Let's end with this. Do people in the movie industry call you Franky Batts?
Frank: ...Yes. [laughter]
Joe: But let's really end with this. Have you ever seen a legitimate magic show?
Frank: Yes, I've seen magic shows. For my aunt's birthday, a couple years ago, she had someone who did card tricks. I wanted to figure out how they did it. And I've seen Penn and Teller do their thing. Actually, Penn Jillette talked about The Prestige in a YouTube thing, talking about "magic in movies." He criticized The Prestige. The "Transported Man," what everyone called "the perfect act," Penn criticized it, like, "No, he just uses a double." He says the same thing that Michael Caine's character does. But he criticized the movie for that, even though the movie itself criticized the act? Movies, magic, entertainment, it's all subjective. While Hugh Jackman thinks this is the greatest magic trick ever, Michael Caine is like, "Yeah, it's a good trick, but I've seen better. I know how he does it." Same thing with movies. While I love this movie—I'm still not calling it "the best movie ever"—someone else could see The Prestige and hate it. Penn Jillette and Roger Ebert couldn't get over the "magic" thing. "I guess the movie's good, but I'm not about to recommend it."
Joe: But you're recommending it. Meaning that you appreciate the magic in the film?
Frank: Yeah, I do. I like it, but I appreciate it less regarding the magic, and more regarding how it relates to creating entertainment. How it relates to the creator and his audience, that relationship. And the fact that—without sounding too pretentious with all this [laughter]—basically, the fact that... is the whole point that you're trying to pull one over on the audience? Or do you want to lay the clues out? The audience could watch this movie... this is going back to the Westworld thing. Westworld season 1, I guessed the big twist before the ending. I was thrilled that I guessed it. To be a filmmaker who leaves those clues, wondering if you, the audience, can figure it out without me telling you until the end? Like a magic trick, can you guess what's going to happen?
Joe: Doesn't that make you like Westworld less because you figured it out though?
Frank: No.
Joe: See, that's where we would disagree.
Frank: It made me anticipate, or nervous, "Am I right or wrong?" It makes the audience feel smarter. You're like, "I feel smart. I feel good now." Now, also, it can be both—I like to be surprised, and I like to see it coming. It just has to be fair. I don't like when a movie doesn't play fair. This movie plays fair, which I like. The clues are there. Like I said, watching it again, it's obvious about the Christian Bale reveal. Even the Hugh Jackman thing at the end, there are subtle hints, even in the opening shots, with the cats and the hats... there are hints of the nature. Especially when we get to Tesla, it's going in one direction.
Mandy: I feel like that's the "thriller" part of it too. When the lines between a horror movie and a thriller get blurred, it's like you're planting pieces of psychological evidence early on that will pay off later. Which seems to be the case with this movie. And a movie like Us, which isn't necessarily a horror film, but it's certainly psychologically disturbing.
Frank: You said earlier that you could guess the ending to Us?
Mandy: Yeah.
Frank: Same. I could guess it early on.
[Frank and Mandy compare horror movie notes for like ten minutes, which gave me a good opportunity to text Pam and let her know I'd be home as soon as I was done my next 20 oz. Oscar's draft beer.]
Joe: Let's wrap this up. Was there a moment when you realized that this was your favorite movie of all time?
Frank: I watched it for the first time in high school. I wouldn't say I realized it was my favorite till late in college. Maybe right after I graduated. It took a good six years or so for me to say it was my favorite. It took me a while, throughout college especially—having Bill Wine as a teacher, having Vince Kling, another awesome La Salle professor—I learned more about studying film. I didn't learn a whole lot about making film, as much as I learned about studying it. That's helped me more on the creative side, now. People in the industry have told me that they think I have some good writing ability. Not that I'm a great writer, yet, but I have a good foundation to work off of.
Joe: I have to imagine, about the part you were talking about earlier, how this movie is representative of what movies strive to do in general—I have to assume that that is what appeals to you the most in this movie.
Frank: Absolutely. I'm not a big fan of movies that are about the movie industry. I love Birdman, but that's more about plays. That's separate enough.
Joe: So what, something like Boogie Nights?
Frank: I like it. I don't love it. And also, that's porno.
Joe: Porno movies are still movies!
Frank: Ehhh... they are, but...
Joe: [laughter] Frank, what's your favorite porn movie?! Of all time?!
Frank: ...
Joe: Continue.
Frank: I love movies that are more on a symbolic level about filmmaking. Something that can related to that, as opposed to something that is literally about the film industry. Something like The Player, or shows like Entourage or 30 Rock—I know people love those, but I just can't get into them. So anyway, it was just so influential to me, since it was around that point when I was leaving college, and starting to enter the work force. I started out as a freelance editor for a home video company, did that for about a year. After that, I tried to get work on sets, did some indie films, and eventually got to work on the first Creed movie. I was a Parking P.A., my whole March was overnights. That helped me meet some great people, good friends.
Joe: So what are you trying to say, this is you following the promise of movie magic that The Prestige laid out?
Frank: I wouldn't say that.
Joe: It has to relate to the movie in some way, or else you're just talking about your employment history. [laughter]
Frank: Fair enough. Sorry.
Joe: No, not at all! I'm just trying to bring it back to the movie.
Frank: I was not expecting to drink this much, this fast.
[laughter]
Mandy: You're hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Frank: But anyway, going back to the movie. I love the fact that you can look at it in different ways. You can look at it like a movie about magic, like a movie about entertainment, or you can just watch it as a fucking movie, just enjoy it as Batman versus Wolverine.
Mandy: I might watch it now.
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