Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. No, wait, wrong movie. Whoops. Welcome back to Your Favorite Movie, everybody.
This week, we talked to our good friend Brittany G***** about her favorite movie of all time. Brittany and Pam grew up together, so they've been friends for decades now. And since I'm married to Pam, I get to be good friends with Brittany too, whether she likes it or not. Nah, seriously though, Brit's cool, I'm glad we get to hang out with her and talk about movies and eat pizza and drink wine, all on a random ass Monday night. I keep my enemies close, and my friends closer.
I was really excited to talk about The Godfather Part II with her, not because I think it's an all-time great too, but just because knowing Brittany, and knowing Godfather, it just seemed like such a bizarre match, ya know what I mean? But she does a good job explaining it.
With us along for this ride are Pam—my consummate movie-bullshitting partner—as well as poor Matt J******, who had never seen The Godfather Part II, but was still dragged out to Port Richmond to talk about it (in fact, Brittany tries in vein to hide the crucial concluding details of Fredo's fate from Matt at various times, so as not to spoil the movie for him). With everyone's permission, and some light editing to take into account an abuse of the "off-the-record" button, our conversation is transcribed below. I know it was you, Fredo.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brittany: [laughter] For why it was my favorite movie?
Joe: Yeah! So that's—I don't usually do it this way, but I just want you to start by explaining why you like this movie so much.
Brittany: I was pretty much... my grandparents always had this movie on. I grew up watching this movie. All of them—well, mostly I and II.
Pam: Your mom's parents?
Brittany: Nope, my dad's parents.
Joe: How old were you at the time?
Brittany: Around eight, nine, ten.
Joe: Watching these violent movies?
Brittany: Yeah, my Grandmom gave zero fucks about it. I watched every horror movie with my Grandmom. My grandparents were like, they always recorded videos on VHS for us. They recorded everything. Their condo, everything was lined with mirrors—
Matt: Even the ceilings?
Brittany: ...
Matt: Only in the bedroom?
[laughter]
Brittany: Like, the walls were mirrors. Their whole entire entertainment section was mirrors.
Pam: So was that... scary...?
Brittany: No, they were... I guess, what I have been paralleling with this whole thing is like, my grandparents kind of lived that "glamorous" lifestyle. My Grandmom was a waitress. She waited on a lot of rich people. A lot of people in mobs, the mafia. My Grandfather was a mailman. But they loved that "fancy" and "fast" lifestyle.
Joe: So you see your grandparents in the characters in this movie?
Brittany: No, not so much.
Joe: Or they saw their peers in the characters in this movie?
Brittany: Yeah. They loved—my grandparents weren't gangsters or anything, but I could see some parallel in the way my grandparents lived to the way the Corleones were living. Obviously, they didn't have that much money. Now that I'm growing up, I've thought about this a lot, like, this kind of makes sense to me now.
Joe: That they weren't in the "inner circle," but maybe an "outer" circle of the mob?
Brittany: My Grandmom was a waitress her whole entire life. She worked at this really ritzy Italian restaurant in New Jersey. And so she had tons of stories, like—this guy came in one time, and gave her this bag, He was on probation, and he was like, "Yo, Floss, can you hold this bag for me—"
Joe: Her name was "Floss"?
Pam and Brittany: Florence.
Joe: Okay, sorry, I'll edit this—
Pam: No, "Floss" is a nickname for "Florence."
Joe: Is it really?
Brittany: Yeah, "Flossy."
Pam: Like "Flossy Nightingale."
Joe: Wow. Please continue about Floss.
Brittany: So she grabbed this bag from him. Took it home... It was full of guns.
Joe: You saw the guns?!
Brittany: No, she was just saying this.
Joe: Jesus, sorry. Go ahead.
Brittany: Then there was this other story, where these guys were sitting around the table, and they had this key, and they put the key in a bar of soap. They used the key to break into this person's house and beat the shit out of those people. I don't even really know. But yeah, my Grandmom had all these crazy stories about mafia people.
Joe: So did your paternal grandparents... was this their favorite movie of all time as well?
Brittany: I would say yeah. Probably.
Joe: And they wanted to pass that on to you?
Brittany: No, they just loved it. I had seen Goodfellas, Dog Day Afternoon, everything DeNiro, Pachino, all the mob movies—
Pam: ...when you were ten years old.
[laughter]
Brittany: Yeah, I was super young. Probably inappropriate but... I didn't really think about it. I didn't actually watch it watch it until I was older.
Pam: I feel like that's definitely a theme of Your Favorite Movie. "It was just on, growing up."
Joe: But this one's interesting, because there are stakes in the people that passed this love on to you. There are stakes in their own personal story. I guess I'm curious as to what your Grandmom would think if she knew that you were now professing that this was your favorite movie too. Would she like that?
Brittany: Probably. But the thing is, I don't glorify that lifestyle. She did. In the movie, the way that they portray the Corleone family—they're very isolated. I read this too, I always felt that they were always isolated. You're only seeing what's going on in the family. You never see the repercussions of all the shit that they're doing, the families that they're hurting. You only see their family. So you have this weird sympathy for the Corleones, like in the first one when Sunny dies, like, "Oh my god, I can't believe Sonny died, I loved Sonny, he was protecting his sister!"
Pam: But he's a mobster.
Brittany: Yeah, he's a shitty person. But they isolate it, so you don't really realize, "Oh, okay, it's fine, he's kind of a shit person, he kind of deserved it?" You only see, "Oh my god, that's Vito's oldest son! And he's dead now!" And you're sad about it!
Joe: Yeah, it was definitely another interesting part of Godfather II, comparing Michael to Young Vito. In that they were kind of doing similar things, they were both criminals.
Brittany: And you sympathize with them, and that's the crazy part of it.
Joe: But, it was made clear that Michael's path lead to destruction, and Vito's lead to, like, a stronger family bond, and this is what he's doing for his family, and this is great. And I'm not saying the movie was wrong to portray Vito like that. I'm saying, what was the significance in the difference between those two characters? What were they trying to contrast?
Brittany: I thought about that too. I think it was just the times [that they lived in]. Vito Corleone died in this orange tree plot, in the first one. He was playing with his grandson. But Michael Corleone, I'm pretty sure he just died alone, in a chair. [laughter]
Joe: At the end of the trilogy.
Brittany: You think about the difference... it's just a change of times?
Joe: Well, okay, Michael died alone. He had kids—who knows, he might've had grandkids at that point—but he was a sad, lonely, depressed piece of shit. Whereas Vito was playing with his grandson. He had family that still supported him. So what was the difference—
Brittany: Drugs.
Pam: Drugs?
Brittany: I honestly think it was. The main difference between Vito and Michael was that, Vito was like "I'll do all this other crazy badass shit, but I don't want to go into the drug thing."
Joe: I guess I forgot about that part of Godfather I.
Brittany: Michael was like, "Let's sell cocaine." In addition to the guns—
Matt: The racketeering.
Brittany: The craziness!
Pam: Even when Michael—he never wanted that family—
Brittany: He never wanted to be "the Godfather."
Pam: Right. Wasn't he in the marines, and married to someone who was total outside of [the mafia].
Brittany: Kay was not the typical—
Pam: Totally anti-mob. But then he got sucked into it, but he didn't want that originally.
Joe: So is that the excuse we're making for Michael? For being so ultimately bad at his job?
Pam: For pushing the family away, because he didn't see the value in... He just had different values I guess.
Brittany: It's weird, because he was such a badass Godfather.
Joe: See, I disagree with the "different values" part, because Michael and Vito, the thing they valued most was family. And yet—
Pam: You think Michael did?
Joe: Yeah, I do. The worst thing that could've happened to him was that his son was aborted. That was the very worst thing that could've happened to him. I'm still, even now, trying to determine where Michael went wrong and where Vito went right.
Brittany: I think it's because [Michael] got so paranoid about power. His father was more like, "This is how it is, this is wrong, we're going to correct this by kill this guy. That sucks, but like, you're a dick, you're gonna die." But Michael, he didn't see who did what first. He was like, "Oh no, it was the Rosetta brothers" and then "Oh no, it was this other dude." Then, "No it Hyman Roth."
Joe: So was it just a sign of the times, that the things Michael was dealing with were a lot more complex, than what Vito was dealing with?
Brittany: The times change. Vito's wife was just this quiet woman—
Joe: She was kind of a nonentity in Godfather II, despite her death.
Brittany: Exactly! But her death was really meaningful in the end. After she passed away, it was done. That's when that other significant event happened...
Joe: Right, we're beating around the bush because Matt hasn't seen the movie.
Matt: I'll go use the bathroom.
[laughter]
Brittany: So then that other thing happened. Super significant. That was the death of the family, and the death of Michael too. Because he forgot the family part of it.
Pam: It's something that Vito never would have done.
Brittany: I think it's because Vito never really had a family growing up.
Pam: That's true. He was building his own family, and his own empire.
Brittany: He knew how much he wanted a family. He saw his mom die, sacrificed for him. Michael never really knew—they grew up rich as shit.
Pam: Maybe that was the big difference. They took it for granted. Family.
Brittany: It's kind of nice, because it's like a "remember the family!" movie, but it's also like, "No, these people are assholes." It's a family movie! [laughter]
Pam: That's the mafia. A "family."
Brittany: But is it?
Joe: Right. To us, as non-mafia members, is it ironic?
Matt: Speak for yourself.
Joe: I guess you never know. Sorry Don Matthew.
[laughter]
Joe: But is it ironic to us that they refer to themselves as "family" but then it's like a "no honor among thieves" type situation?
Brittany: Totally. So, okay, look at their sister. Look at Fredo. He had to kiss ass. I don't really think it's a "family." When Michael took over, it was a "family" thing, but not really. Would you ever hurt somebody in your own family?
Matt: Who's the only person you've ever punched in the face?
[Editor's note: Cutting an off-the-record story about Brittany punching a family member in the face.]
Joe: So back on record. I don't think punching somebody is necessarily the same as severing ties with family, like Michael did in the movie.
Brittany: He kind of did sever ties with me. For like two months.
Joe: But you came back. You just said you laughed about it.
Brittany: We did. We rekindled.
Joe: Because why?
Brittany: Because we're family.
Joe: Exactly.
Brittany: That's crazy that Michael could've done everything he did to his family.
Joe: Right. There are definitely moments when you're allowed to be angry at your family, or upset, or annoyed at your family.
Brittany: Even Kay... I think times had changed. Vito's wife would've never gotten an abortion. Never ever. But Kay's like, "Fuck you, I'm not bringing this monstrosity into the world."
Pam: I don't think Vito's wife thought he was a monster, either.
Joe: I think it was more like, "What are they doing for me? How is this affecting me?" Vito didn't have to go in front of a grand jury to attest to his crimes.
Brittany: Times had changed. You couldn't just do that kind of shit anymore.
Joe: Which, for the record, is a good thing! You can't murder without reproach!
Pam: I don't think [Kay] signed up for that lifestyle either. When they got together, he was like "I'm not part of this."
Joe: I guess that was the end of The Godfather I.
Pam: Whereas Vito's wife, and it seems like most mafia wives—this is just from me watching The Sopranos—the majority of them turn a blind eye, because they're benefiting—
Joe: You believe what you want to believe.
Brittany: The women in those family are so belittled. Like, if you try to be an independent woman, like Connie. She could not—they set her up with that guy in Godfather I, and then fucking killed him. You have no respect as a woman in that family if you try to be independent or an individual.
Pam: There's no female mob bosses.
Joe: Only according to the entertainment we've watched. And probably actually true, I guess?
Pam: The Real Housewives of New Jersey are all housewives.
Brittany: But yeah, it's such an old-school, degrading... but when you watch the film, you're like, "Why would you ever want to betray Michael, or Vito?"
Pam: Because they're being portrayed by Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro.
Brittany: The way they film it, you're only seeing their family. They're the only characters. Of course we're rooting for them.
Joe: The anti-heroes.
Pam: That's definitely a common thing in TV and movies. Like, Tony Soprano, you're rooting for him the whole time.
Joe: You can be a piece of shit, but also be a very deep character. You understand why they're doing these things. But if they were in the real world... So Brittany, are you Italian at all?
Brittany: No, not even a little bit.
Joe: Not that this has anything to do with it.
Brittany: Nope.
Joe: But was there any sort of empathy at any point where, like, here are Italians coming over from Italy, and that crooked Senator standing up and saying "This Italian neighborhood is so great," for you own culture, your own people. Was that... did that have anything to do with... your appreciation for this movie? If your answer is no, that is fine.
Brittany: I think it's kind of—I mentioned this earlier—my Grandmother is Russian. My dad's mother. Her father came over when he was really young. Her grandfather escaped the Iron Curtain.
Joe: Are you grandparents still alive, if you don't mind me asking?
Brittany: No, they both passed. But, so I think my Grandmother was hiding this... they changed their last name from "Ivanhoff" to just "Hoff," so they wouldn't be "Russian." Even though their accents gave it away.
Matt: [Russian impression] "Hello, we are the Hoffs."
Pam: And they settled in Feasterville too, right? [Editor's note: A joke—they didn't actually settle in Feasterville, the same town that Pam and Brittany grew up in. The joke is that there is a significant Eastern European population in that town. Source.]
Brittany: I think the whole Godfather story is how... my grandmother wanted to be so fancy. It reminds me of this old-school... I don't know about your grandparents, but my Grandmom just wanted to be so old-school—
Joe: So like, you could replace "Italian" with "Russian" in this film, and it could be your Grandmom's story?
Brittany: Maybe! Really very little to do with the mob, but... She would be like, "Ladies never drink beer out of a bottle." She wouldn't drink beer out of a bottle! Very fancy.
Pam: How about wine out of a can? [laughter]
Brittany: No. Ya know what I mean though? It had to be this way, this way, this way, this way.
Joe: Because of her traditions from Russian?
Brittany: My Grandmom gave me a mink coat when I was young. I was like... I don't want to wear a mink coat. I was wearing Chicago Bulls T-shirts. But she was that... they had those crystals, the whole condo was mirrors—
Pam: So it was like that lifestyle.
Brittany: It was a lifestyle.
Pam: When you were like ten years old, did you think your grandparents were secretly in the mob?
Brittany: Yes! I did. I'm not even gonna lie. I think my Grandmom was in Rizzo's biography. She was mentioned in there as being his favorite waitress. My Grandfather always had a scotch on the rocks at 3 PM, no matter what. This whole lifestyle that they had, that kind of explains my dad a lot...
Joe: I was going to say, so you're clearly being fondly nostalgic about your family. Do you take any sort of lesson from Michael's downfall? Not in terms of specifics—
Brittany: [laughter] "Stop breaking the law, asshole!"
Joe: —in general, the hard lesson that he learned of "family is the most important thing." Does that lesson have anything to do with your grandparents? How you think fondly about your grandparents? Or, like, the fact you just discovered you just discovered a new brother? [Editor's note: That last question goes unaddressed in the conversation, and it's not really my story to tell, especially in a goddamn editor's note, so we'll just leave it at that.]
Brittany: To me, family is so important. I think—my [other] brother, we were so close, super close with my mom... not so much with my dad. But for a long time, we were with my dad.
Joe: Do you want to delve into that?
Brittany: My dad?
Joe: Yeah.
Brittany: No. Do you want me to pay you a hundred dollars an hour? Because that's what I do with my therapist.
[laughter]
Joe: No, that's fair.
Brittany: No, I kind of do though, sometimes, when I think about this, actually. I thought about this a lot this weekend. So, my grandparents were like, if my dad had ever killed anybody, they'd be like, "Everybody grab a shovel, we have to bury this body in the backyard." [laughter] Family, right? But, my dad grew up kind of entitled? That he could do whatever he wanted. And he shut us out a lot. So we weren't super close with him. And I almost parallel that with him not understanding what family really is? Because everyone just did things for him, even more so than my uncle, his brother. When it came time to... I just don't think he ever really learned any lessons, from making mistakes. I don't know if that makes any sense. So if we did something to him, he'd be like, "You can't do that to me," and we'd be like, "...we're twelve." [laughter] It was kind of like... I think he was kind of childish? Kind of like how Michael Corleone is a huge baby at the end! It was like, "Dude, you suck as a dad, get your shit together." But... my grandparents were awesome to us, and they were awesome to my dad, but in different ways.
Joe: But you're not like that. So would you say you learned that from your mom?
Brittany: Yeah. My mom was more of the "Kay," like, "Be normal, you can't just do this and get away with it." My dad used to park in front of a fire hydrant, because that was the open spot.
Joe: Oh my god, don't get me started on that. We fucking live in Port Richmond.
Brittany: But I would be like, who's paying all his tickets? His mom was paying his tickets! You know what I mean? Because he can't do any wrong, because he's her son, and whatever he does... he was like the golden child. If you do that to your kids, I don't think it translates into being a good family member.
Matt: The important part is the tough love.
Brittany: Yeah! You gotta learn, ya know, you can't fucking do that kind of stuff to people. It's not going to work out in the end.
Joe: I read on Wikipedia that that was part of Godfather III. Sonny's estranged son was causing trouble, I guess? Because he learned the wrong lessons from his father, perhaps? And it was passed down. Nature versus nurture, and that whole deal.
Brittany: Yeah.
Joe: Which, I meant to ask your brother what his favorite movie was.
Brittany: My brother?
Joe: Yeah. Is it Godfather II?
Brittany: It might be Christmas Vacation.
[laughter]
Brittany: He posts about it all the time. He was even Steve Martin for Halloween.
Pam: You mean Chevy Chase?!
Brittany: I'm sorry.
Joe: So we're leaning toward the "nurture" part of this. It's not genetic.
Brittany: No, me and my brother are so similar when it comes to personality.
Pam: But you have different dads.
Joe: I mean, look, I was mainly making a joke. I didn't actually expect your long-lost brother's favorite movie to be Godfather II.
Brittany: [laughter] No, it's probably not.
[Editor's note: Cutting more off-the-record musings about family and friends.]
Joe: Okay, so back on the record. I'm going to use the "nature versus nurture" discussion as a segue into this theory I have about the Corleones, that, as far as I can tell, has never been written on the internet. So this is the first time, right here on this blog. The four Corleone siblings represent the four houses of Hogwarts.
Brittany: [laughter] Okay.
Joe: Note for the record that Brittany laughed and Pam rolled her eyes.
Brittany: So wait, can I guess these?
Joe: Please.
Brittany: Michael is clearly the Slytherin.
Joe: Yes, clearly. Cunning and—
Brittany: Smart. Very smart.
Joe: —and you can't really name him as "evil" outright, but he does some fucked up shit in order to consolidate his power.
Brittany: Sonny is Gryffindor.
Joe: Absolutely. He beats his chest, and that gets him in trouble eventually.
Brittany: Fredo is Hufflepuff.
Joe: Yes. He even described himself as a Hufflepuff, basically, like, "I know I'm not the smartest, but I'm friendly!"
Brittany: And that was his downfall! He was just too trusting...
Joe: He was the Cedric Digory of the Godfather trilogy.
Brittany: Another think I want to bring up—
Joe: Hold up.
Brittany: Oh, Connie is Ravenclaw. Playing it smart, being safe.
Joe: How sound is this theory?
Brittany: Very sound.
Joe: So I guess the question is, is this a theory that Hogwarts houses can be applied to any quadrant of characters in pop culture? Or did J.K. Rowling just take the four main characteristics of any four different characters, and apply that to the houses in a magical school? I don't know.
Brittany: I would never take a character and narrow them down to two traits. Characters like Fredo. But when you have a category, you're like, "Well, you're more this, more that." Maybe not everything. Me and Pam would do that with Now and Then characters. Like, "Alright, I'm Chrissy because I'm the fat one." [Editor's note: Am I explaining too many jokes in these editor's notes? Maybe. But the joke here is that Pam and Brittany's friend Chrissy is decidedly not fat.]
Pam: "Jessy is the one who likes boys, so she's this one."
Brittany: And I'm more of a Roberta, "because she's the sporty one." You take the characters, and you try to fit yourself into one of them.
Joe: So this conversation has basically turned into a living, breathing Buzzfeed quiz, I guess.
Pam: No, anytime there is four characters like that, you're like, "Well, which one are you?" Like Sex and the City. Ya know? It's human nature to try to fit it into one of those.
Joe: So weren't you saying something else before we had to talk about Ravenclaw?
Brittany: Oh yeah, another thing I want to bring up is the fact that oranges—I don't think they were meant to be symbolism, but I think they got to be that way—
Pam: You don't think they were meant to be?
Brittany: I googled it a little bit, and to some people, it wasn't intentional. But when you look back, at Godfather I and II—
Joe: I think the question is, was it intentional in the first one? Because by the second one, it was certainly intentional.
Brittany: The first one was not intentional, I don't think.
Joe: So it was like, fan theories? 1973 Godfather fans were like, "oranges are a death sentence!" and then, like, when they were filming Godfather II, they were like, "Yeah, maybe this Italian mobster should be buying a fucking orange right before he gets shot up"?
Brittany: I dunno. [Editor's note: I'm not going to listen to the goddamn commentary tracks on the Godfather DVDs, but according to a few sources, Coppola states in the commentary that the oranges thing was by accident in the first one, and on purpose in the sequels.]
Joe: Okay, so, modern news, as far as Godfather II goes. Did you hear about the CNN... host, or whatever the fuck, claiming that being called "Fredo" was the same as a black person being called the n-word?
Brittany: Woah... no.
Joe: Yeah, it happened only a couple weeks ago.
Brittany: Anybody being called "Fredo"?
Joe: No, sorry, an Italian person being called "Fredo" is the same, according to him, the same as being called the n-word?
Brittany: No.
Joe: It's clearly not true, because I'm saying the word "Fredo," but I'm not saying the n-word here, so...
Brittany: That's crazy, that Italians would be offended by that?
Pam: I don't think Italians would be offended by that.
Brittany: It's not fair to say only Italians have seen the Godfather. Maybe I'd be offended by that? If you call me "Fredo," we're gonna have words, like...
Joe: Like, being called a "Malfoy" I guess. That's not the n-word for pale, Welsh boys.
Brittany: Well I hope that gets put to rest.
Pam: It already has.
Joe: Godfather II was also in the news recently for another reason, in that, are you familiar with Roger Stone?
Brittany: No.
Joe: [sighs] ...I'm not really either. I will probably footnote the shit out of this section. I think he's a conservative think-tank person that possibly owns some media corporation? I'm gonna cut all this and fucking footnote the shit out of it. But he's a big trumper. He was inducted, arrested, taken away in handcuffs, all that shit. Just because, ya know, shady shit, I guess? International shady shit, paying people off and whatnot? [Editor's note: Vox to the rescue again in this pre-indictment article.] During his trial, that is currently ongoing, the federal government wanted to play [in court] the scene where Frank, of the Corleone family, where Frank's brother is behind him, and [Frank then] decided not to testify against Michael?
Brittany: Right, yup.
Joe: The federal government wanted to play that scene to convince the jury that Roger Stone was part of a similar organization, in that he was threatening witnesses to not testify against him. So Roger Stone's lawyers had to argue to the judge that the Godfather II should not be played in court. This is like a week ago!
Brittany: ...I agree. You shouldn't play a movie in court!
Pam: It seems a little... unprofessional?
Joe: Well, I guess the point is that this dude is threatening witnesses, and here's what happens when a witness is threatened! They kill themselves in a bathtub!
Brittany: But that... that was highly foreshadowed—
Joe: It was pretty much directed by Tom... he more or less said, "You should kill yourself," and then Frank went ahead and did it.
Brittany: That's so sad to me. That's actually the one thing I wanted to go back to Godfather I for. I didn't remember why his brother being there was causing him to—
Joe: I think it was stated. Frank told Tommy, like, "This dude is more badass than I will ever be, and it kinda got under my skin." Like, "My brother would never do this shit. Would never testify against his own family." That kinda...
Brittany: I picked that up, but I was wondering if there was something in the first movie that alluded to that as well. Because he was in the first movie I believe.
Joe: Was he? [Editor's note: No.]
Brittany: But I didn't have time to go back because... I'm so busy... [laughter]
Joe: That actor was nominated for an Oscar. There were a lot of Oscar nominations for this.
Brittany: Robert DeNiro won, for Best Supporting Actor.
Joe: Out of the five Supporting Actor nominations, three of them were for Godfather II. It was them two and Hyman Roth['s actor].
Brittany: Al Pacino?
Joe: Well, Al Pacino was for Best Leading Actor.
Brittany: Did he win?
Joe: He did not win. He lost to Art Carney from Harry and Tonto. I have never heard of the actor or the movie...
Brittany: Same!
Joe: Matt, have you ever heard of Art Carney?
Matt: ...I've heard of carnies...
Joe: He was theoretically, a carnie.
Brittany: From Harry and Tonto?
Joe: I assume that's a cowboy western, maybe? I know Tonto is a horse. [Editor's note: No.] Okay, so let's see... Supporting Actor, obviously, what's his name—
Brittany: DeNiro.
Joe: Yeah, DeNiro, that guy. So that's the only time in history that two people have won an Oscar for playing the same character. Because Marlon Brando won for Best Leading Actor in Godfather I.
Brittany: I mean, it's a great film. Both of them. III is...meh.
Joe: Do you feel like Godfather II deserved the Oscars it won? Do you feel like it deserved Best Picture?
Brittany: Oh my god, yeah. It stands the test of time.
Joe: Okay, so do you feel like it deserved Best Director—?
Brittany: Yes.
Joe: —and if so, why? What about the directing? Not that I know jackshit about directing movies. But was there a moment where you were like, "This is good directing"? Because I didn't feel that. But I totally defer to the interviewee.
Brittany: I'm trying to think of an actual scene in Godfather II. But in the first one—
Joe: Same director, so you're allowed to talk about Godfather I.
Brittany: Apparently they almost tried to fire [the director] several times during the filming for what he was doing.
Joe: Before The Godfather made them millions of dollars, I'm sure.
Brittany: Right. But the baptism scene in Godfather I, like, highly acclaimed scene. Because it goes back and forth between the baptism, which is the "new" or "coming into the world," and meanwhile Michael Corleone is killing every single head of the family. Killing everybody, at the same time this member of the family is being "born." That kind of thing.
Joe: And this is good directing, you're saying.
Brittany: The way they did it, yeah.
Joe: Do you mind if I press you a little bit?
Brittany: Sure.
Joe: What about that said "good directing" to you? Because I... I'm coming at this from a negligent point of view, I don't...
Brittany: I don't know much about directing, but I think it's hard to take clips from certain scenes, because I think they said that the longest clip from a particular part of that scene was six seconds.
Joe: Putting them together.
Brittany: They put them together, and then this music on top of it, it all came together.
Joe: The implication being that the director chose the music that really brought the scene together.
Brittany: Right. So, I think deciding to not just show the baptism, but to also show everyone being murdered—going back and forth, putting the... I don't know the word for it...
Joe: Editing?
Brittany: Completely, like...
Joe: Balancing the drama or themes, I guess?
Brittany: You're baptizing this baby, but you're also killing so many people.
Matt: Juxtaposition.
Joe: Yes! That's it! That's the word.
Brittany: That's it! [laughter] So I think just that sequence is hard to do, because you want the person who's watching to be like, "the fuck is going on?" but you also want them to be like, "Oh shit! Oh shit!" and then back to the baptism, "Oh my god!" But then you think about it, and it's like, wow, that's a really artsy thing they did there.
Joe: And I guess that was maybe expanded to the whole movie in Godfather II, in that the prequel and the sequel scenes were... juxtapo-sosed?
Brittany: Juxta....
Joe: Juxtapositioned?
Matt: Juxtaposed...?
Joe: Yes again!
[laughter]
Joe: Opposed juxtedly.
Brittany: Juxtaphied.
Joe: It was interesting to read on IMDB that apparently there was a lot more intercutting between the two timelines, but then audiences found it confusing originally? So then they had to reedit this movie to group the timelines into thicker parts?
Brittany: It's funny, because from when I watched it when I was younger, I remember more of the Vito parts of the story? Because I probably didn't understand everything that was going on with Michael?
Pam: Yeah, his part was a little bit more confusing.
Brittany: It was murky. I don't think Michael knew what was going on half the time.
Pam: I definitely didn't know everything that was happening. I was like, "Wait, is that guy good? Is that guy bad?"
Brittany: And then whole thing... it's so crazy when you're that deep into something, and you're like, "Who do I trust?" Like, "Frank would never do that" and "Michael would never do that to Frank," and...
Joe: So did Vito have it easy? He knew his family was who he was with, and the other people wearing top hats in New York were the people he was against, and—
Brittany: It turned out the people that [Michael] trusted the most [Fredo, unstated because Matt has never scene the movie] ended up being the one [to betray]... but not intentionally. Almost by accident. Because he's just... a Hufflepuff, really.
Joe: That's how he gave away his [betrayal], actually. They were at a strip club, and he was like, "My boy, who I just claimed I had never met, told me about this strip club!"
Brittany: But [Fredo] didn't know that they were going to shoot out Michael's house. And he was weary at first, but then the booze... that's another thing. Michael Corleone never drank. Only water.
Pam: Like trump.
Joe: ..."Like trump" you said?! Jesus.
Brittany: So wait, here's my question.
Joe: Please.
Brittany: Do you think the Corleone family would've voted trump?
Pam: Yes!
Joe: Ha!
Brittany: I don't think so.
Pam: They have money!
Brittany: They were on the Teamsters! Teamsters are totally Democrats.
Pam: I mean, mobs are a big part of unions—
Brittany: They're all corrupt.
Pam: —but they all have so much money.
Brittany: But I don't think they would've voted Republican. They would've voted... no.
Joe: No, I disagree, Brit.
Brittany: I don't think they would've voted for a woman. They don't like women.
Joe: People in power vote for people that are also in power.
Brittany: Hilary Clinton was in power. But no, wait—can I—
Joe: No, please, this is great.
Brittany: My grandfather—my dad's...
Joe: Your paternal grandfather.
Brittany: That's a great way of putting it.
Joe: I'm a social worker.
Brittany: My paternal grandfather, when he died—he died of leukemia, it was two months maybe—and he has a twin brother. We were in there, and I was like, "Grandpop, did you send your absentee ballot in?" and he was like, "Yeah, I already sent it in," and I was like, "Who did you vote for?" He goes, "Democrat, all the way! You will not find a Republican in this family."
Joe: Wow. Is that true?
Brittany: Yeah, my dad was a Teamster.
Pam: Your family's not the Corleones, though.
Brittany: No they're not.
[laughter]
Pam: Unions are democrats. But mob bosses, who are often part of these unions, are not... they're not the same. They're not the same people who are doing the work.
Joe: I'm not even going to say mob bosses, I'll say millionaires. Millionaires are in their own class.
Pam: You think Johnny Doc voted for trump? The people who have money in their pockets...
Brittany: I feel like, just because Hillary was a woman...
Matt: I just can't accept that anyone would vote for trump.
[laughter]
Joe: Right.
Brittany: Cheers to that.
Joe: Alright! As much as I like shitting on our president during these things, let's name my favorite piece of trivia for this movie. And that is, the Moshulu was featured in the movie. As soon as we saw it, we were like, "Oh shit, is that the same Moshulu?!"
Brittany: It is!
Joe: I looked it up! It's the same Moshulu! [to Matt] There is a restaurant on Delaware Avenue that's on a ship called Moshulu, and that same ship, in 1973, was featured in Godfather II as the Moshulu that it was originally intended to be, transferring immigrants from Europe to America. It wasn't quite accurate, in that, the scene in Godfather which it's in, takes place in 1901—
Brittany: Ah, it's the one that Vito comes over on!
Joe: Yes, Vito comes over to America on the Moshulu. And it features the same fucking ship you can have a fucking cocktail—
Brittany: And dance party.
Pam: You can get married on the Moshulu, right?
Joe: But the Moshulu itself wasn't built until 1904, so...
Matt: You can take me there, to make up for the pizza that I bought tonight.
Joe: I think they have a late night menu, so maybe we should just go tonight.
Matt: Grab Willow.
Pam: She'll be fine on the monitor.
Joe: In any case, it was cool seeing a little piece of Philly in The Godfather.
Brittany: Totally. I was like, "Oh my god! I should write this note down." But then I forgot.
Joe: I definitely... Pam was like, "Are you writing notes down?" and I was like, "I'm writing the word 'Moshulu' down because there's two and half hours of movie after the Moshulu, and I'm not going to remember this."
Brittany: There's an intermission in this movie, which is crazy.
Joe: It's a long-ass movie. So... why don't you tell me about why this is the movie. Versus I or III.
Brittany: I think I just grew up loving Vito's story, how he became "The Godfather." That was the most intriguing thing to me.
Joe: Versus Vito's story in Godfather I, where he was already a family man?
Brittany: Yeah, just how it was the way he got to be the way he is. I really love that. Because Vito had nothing. Nothing! And then he built something. He did a really good job! Coming over, by yourself, on a boat... I would be freaking out! I dunno.
Joe: I mean, none of us can actually relate to that. We all came up middle class, if not upper middle class. But it's interesting to watch! His rise to power.
Brittany: Like I said, when I was watching this, when I was young. I only really remembered mostly Vito's parts. Not so much Michael's parts, because I didn't really understand all of it. Like, an abortion? I had no clue what that was when I was young. [laughter] Like, what? Okay. I was eight. "I don't know why he's being mean to her?" [laughter] But seeing Vito, you see him... lose his job...
Pam: It was simpler, the storyline.
Brittany: Yes, and with Michael, everything is so complicated. There's just too many thing and people, relationships, you don't know who to believe, times are changing... Too much.
Joe: So, now knowing the Godfather trilogy, what makes Godfather II a good sequel, in general?
Brittany: So Godfather I was a really good, solid movie. Godfather II not only expands upon it, and continues the story, but also it's a prequel. It's the same movie!
Joe: So if a sequel does that, it's automatically a good sequel?
Brittany: No...
Joe: Because I present to you—Mamma Mia! Here We Go Again.
[laughter]
Joe: Which, according to an interview I read today, was specifically modeled after Godfather II, in that it was a prequel and a sequel.
Pam: That was a great movie.
Brittany: That was a great movie.
Joe: Was it?! Was it?!
Pam: Did you see it?
Joe: We watched it together!!
Pam: ...oh, we did?
Joe: I'm still curious... what makes something not a good sequel, I guess? Maybe we should start there.
Brittany: Character development is really important.
Joe: So, like, saying something new about the character that wasn't said in the first movie?
Brittany: I think when you have a really good movie, like Godfather I was, people just want more. They have questions. I know I did. I always have questions, like, "How did you get to be this way?" That answered all the questions, quickly! Also, it showed you more stories in the future. So, for Godfather III then, why wasn't that as good as II?
Joe: Because it still answers some questions.
Brittany: Maybe it skipped too much? All I remember from Godfather II right now is... the thing about the Godfather movies is that there is always this big celebration that's going on. The wedding, baptism, the communion. In the third one, it was what, someone's birthday?
Joe: It was at the opera...? I read Wikipedia today.
Brittany: Sofia Coppola—the daughter—dies on the steps of the Art Museum? No, it wasn't the Art Museum.
Joe: The Rocky Steps, yes.
Brittany: Was it?
Joe: [laughter] No.
Brittany: But there's always some big party, and there's always going on in the background. A wholesome party, but some shit's gonna happen. I dunno... I dunno what I'm trying to say. But I feel like they didn't do a lot of groundwork with Godfather III? There were just like... here it is.
Joe: So, I'll press you a little bit. What's the difference between II and III, if II is just answering unanswered questions, and Godfather III is doing the same?
Brittany: I think I would want to know, because Michael's such a closed off character, I'd want to know what the hell's going on in his mind. Like, did he regret killing... [mumbles "Fredo"]
Joe: You definitely heard what she just said, right?
Brittany: No he didn't. You didn't hear that, right?
Matt: ...Was it Fredo?
Brittany: What?!
Matt: ...Don't know what you're talking about...
Brittany: So anyway, maybe they should've done more character development [in Godfather III], like maybe some scenes from when Michael was young? That showed what lead him to be how he is now?
Joe: They should've pulled a "Godfather II" in Godfather III?
Brittany: Yeah.
Joe: But would that have made it a better film? I don't know that it would've. Because then everyone would be like, "You're just repeating the same trick that you pulled in Godfather II."
Brittany: Right, but isn't that how mob families continue? What was so different with Michael...? It would've been such a contrast between Vito's bringing up and Michael's bringing up. They were completely differently. But, like, "What the fuck happened to you that you're such a closed off, emotionless piece of shit?" But even when he was going the military route, he was pretty... flat, as a person. Emotion, but not much. Like, "What the hell happened to you growing up?"
Joe: And Vito, his dad, never indicated to him that he would be a good head of the family, right? He was pushing for Michael to be a senator.
Brittany: Michael was Vito's favorite, though. That's the thing.
Joe: That's not to say that he wanted Michael to be the head of the family.
Brittany: It was the scene where—they had someone else come in and do the scene—because they wanted to show Vito and Michael's relationship, but they couldn't really do that, because he was so closed off. So they had someone else come in—
Joe: What scene?
Brittany: The scene where Vito was like, "I never wanted this for you." In Godfather I. So I wouldn't mind it if III showed some snippets of his childhood, or like why he's such a robotic person.
Joe: It's interesting to me, thinking about sequels, and what being a "sequel" means. The push and pull between "We need to satisfy the audience's need to know these additional facts about a movie that has already ended," versus an audience being tired of being shown the same thing twice. Clearly Godfather II avoided that trap. Because it presented a new story structure, being a prequel and a sequel.
Brittany: Is that the first type of sequel like that?
Joe: It is absolutely the first sequel to win an Oscar. It's the only Best Picture winner to have a Roman numeral in its title. Return of the King was the second and most recent sequel to win Best Picture.
Brittany: I have all those DVDs.
Joe: I spent my entire week transcribing a conversation with my brother-in-law about those movies. Let's please not get into that again. [laughter] So there's been two sequels to win Best Picture. There must be something about this that made it above and beyond a typical sequel.
Brittany: I think the humanizing of the mafia is something people are interested in. They're interested in the mob, and making them seem human, and find out where the hell they come from.
Joe: [to the table] What's the worst sequel you've ever seen?
Matt: All Saints Day.
Joe: [laughter] Oh shit, yes!
Matt: I have never seen it.
Joe: But do you like Boondock Saints?
Matt: I grew up in a group of friends that loved Boondock Saints. And we were like, "Let's pretend the sequel never happened."
Brittany: The worst sequel...
Pam: My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2.
Joe: You saw that in theaters, right?
Pam: Yeah. It was such a long time after the original.
Joe: But okay, as the the only person who's seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2 and The Godfather Part II, what would you say is the main difference between the two? What made The Godfather II succeed and My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2 fail?
Pam: I don't know!
Joe: I remember you saying that Greek Wedding 2 repeated a lot of the plot points that Greek Wedding 1 did.
Pam: Yeah, it was based on another wedding.
Brittany: Maybe it didn't fill in holes in the same way that Godfather II did?
Pam: Yeah. I mean, they tried to develop the character of the dad a little more, because they featured his brother. But—
Joe: But it's important for a sequel to—
Pam: Are you going to let me talk?!
Joe: ...Please. Sorry.
Pam: I think for that one, there was just such a long period in between the two movies. Everyone was super old. It was... not the same, watching them.
Matt: Look Who's Talking Too was pretty terrible.
[laughter]
Joe: Yes! What's the difference between...
Matt: I was joking.
Joe: The biggest difference is that in Look Who's Talking, it's spelled T-O-O, and Godfather uses Roman numerals.
Matt: Exactly.
Joe: But thematically, what's the biggest difference? Seriously.
Brittany: Look Who's Talking Too...
[Editor's note: Okay, I'm giving up, this transcription is going way too far down the rabbit hole. I don't need to copy the discussion about who voiced what fucking dog in the Look Who's Talking trilogy.]
Brittany: I wanted to talk about the oranges, how it means doom and gloom for everybody.
Pam: We did already, didn't we?
Brittany: We did.
Joe: We can talk about it again.
Brittany: I saw it a few times in Godfather II and was like, "Oranges! Oranges!"
Joe: How about the scene in The Sopranos where Tony is almost killed, and his bottle of orange juice gets shot?
Matt: Was that a nod?
Joe: It was.
Brittany: I like that.
Pam: Speaking of nods, here's another one for you. How do you feel about Destiny Child's nod to The Godfather? On Writings on the Wall?
Brittany: Loved it. Beyoncé.
Pam: Is she the one doing the Godfather impression?
Brittany: Yup, it's Beyoncé Knowles.
Joe: She was doing a Marlon Brando impression?
Brittany: I think she succeeded.
Joe: What was Destiny Child's album after that?
Brittany: [singing] "I don't think you're ready for this jelly."
Pam: No, he said what was the album after. Oh no. Are you really trying to tie this to your sequel obsession?
Joe: If you could make a connection between "I don't think you're ready for this jelly" and Godfather II, what would it be?
Matt: Is it orange jelly?
[laughter]
Joe: Was Vito, from the grave, like, "Michael, I don't think you're ready for this... position in the mafia family."
[Pam and Brittany sing various Destiny's Child songs.]
Joe: Okay, to wrap this up, why don't we just talk a little more about your love for this movie. Give your concluding statement.
Brittany: I just think this movie, in a "weird flex" kind of way... well, it reminds me of my grandparents, because I grew up watching this movie with them, but it was also kind of like the way my dad came in with my mom. I feel like my mom was more of a "Kay," and my dad was more of a "Michael."
Joe: Is that something you saw the first time you watched this movie? Or was it something that, when you got older—
Brittany: Yes, exactly. And when I was watching this, growing up, I was like, "Wow, this family is really cool." When I was older, I was like, "Wow, this family is really dysfunctional and fucked up." You have that illusion when you're younger, like, "This is so cool, so fancy, I want to be a Corleone!" When you get older, you're like, "Holy shit, this is awful."
Joe: Right.
Brittany: Plus there's really good cinematography. And how they isolate the Corleone family, and you sympathize with them? Even though they're monsters. Somehow, you're like... when Sonny was going to check on his sister when she was being beaten, that really resonated with me! Because my brother was really protective of me. And then he got shot, and I was like, "Oh my god!" But it's also like, you're a monster. You're all monsters.
Joe: It speaks to the dual nature of humans, I guess.
Brittany: Yeah, it's not as heart-wrenching when you think about all the pain he's caused so many other families. But you're really in tune to their family, and that's it.
Joe: But I can't imagine you yourself feeling empathy in the idea of the dual nature of humans. I've never seen the evil side of Brittany G*****.
Brittany: You weren't at Tattoo Mom's that one night... [laughter]
Joe: But not in a mafia way.
Brittany: Yeah, I dunno... I'm a pretty nice person I guess...
Joe: But I guess that speaks to the successes of the movie, that non-evil people can somehow relate to these clearly evil people. Ya know?
Brittany: I think the evil side and the dark side has this allure. You're like, "Oooh, I wanna be bad." [laughter] But no, I can't do that. [laughter]
Joe: And that's a wrap.
Matt: Forget going on dates with people, if you want to get to know someone, interview them about their favorite movie. Damn.
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