Welcome once again to Your Favorite Movie, in which we pretend that we need a friend's help in loading a couch into a van, but really we're closing the van doors and forcing them to tell us about their favorite movie of all time.
This week, Stephan C****** puts the lotion in the basket and tells us about his favorite movie. Like many of my college friends, I met him through the theater program, where he was Bobby Strong-ing his way through Urinetown, and showing this dumb freshman the ropes. Stephan has the gift of making people want to be his friend, and so I've been his friend for a while now, always finding time to grab a couple beers and catch up. So yeah, I was real excited to finally sit down and talk with him about his movie.
That movie is, obviously, The Silence of the Lambs. Even if you've never seen the movie, you know this movie. It's one of the classics. We discuss it below, with Allison and Pam, whom you know from previous entries in the YFM canon. The conversation is transcribed with permission, and slightly edited, mainly to cut out Pam's out-of-nowhere monologue about how the priest from Fleabag is so hot(????). Enjoy!
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Stephan: Well, I'm thankful that they—spoilers—that they catch Buffalo Bill. Well, that they kill Buffalo Bill. Even though Hannibal gets away. It's a suspenseful movie, so it definitely fits Halloween.
Allison: But it's not like a "Halloween scary" movie.
Joe: And I definitely want to get into that eventually.
Allison: Do they reference what time of year this takes place at all? It just seems autumnal.
Pam: Yeah, it seems a little chilly. Clarice has her heavy jacket on most of the time.
Stephan: She's running though the woods with a sweatshirt on.
Allison: So yeah. [laughter] It's a late-autumn movie.
Joe: They kind of talk about the importance of meals in this movie...?
Pam: For Thanksgiving?
Joe: Yeah, even though the meals are human flesh. Or, ya know, the weird bonds we build among unlikely parties.
Stephan: Coming together.
Joe: Clarice and Hannibal become a... family... that they're thankful for...?
Allison: Much like the pilgrims.
Pam: We watched the "human meat" episode of It's Always Sunny last night.
Joe: I mean... that was definitely a joke question. But this movie actually premiered in theaters on St. Valentine's Day.
Stephan: Oh yeah, we did read that.
Joe: So I guess it could be a St. Valentine's Day movie?
Pam: I wonder what the trailer was. [laughter] If they were like, [voice-over movie trailer voice] "Coming this Valentine's Day..."
Joe: Do you think there were couples who went to see this for their first date on Valentine's Day, and are married still?
Allison: I hope so!
Pam: Probably. It's definitely a popcorn movie. I'm sure it drew a lot of people into the theaters.
Stephan: And suspenseful movies are good movies to take a date to.
Allison: I could definitely see someone taking advantage of that last hour of the movie, having a woman clinging to him in the seat next to him.
Joe: I tried to do some googling, like, "is silence of the lambs a good valentines movie," and VH1 actually had a listicle. [laughter] For why this is a good Valentine's Day movie! It was... real bad. It was real bad.
Stephan: I will say, though—this is a very Drew A******* thing to know—it was not originally scheduled to be released on Valentine's Day.
Joe: Oh god.
Stephan: I know. So it was originally supposed to be released in the Fall of '90, but they didn't want to compete with Dances with Wolves, for the Oscars. Because they felt like they had a good movie.
Pam: Did Dances with Wolves win?
Stephan: I believe so, yeah. So they just decided to do it afterward.
Joe: So they didn't do it on purpose.
Stephan: They didn't do it on purpose. But it's still really funny that it was released on Valentine's Day.
Joe: So VH1 was wrong when they said one of the reasons this is a good Valentine's Day movie is because "Lambs are cute."
Pam: ...There aren't even any lambs in it. [laughter]
Allison: I guess if you wanted to trick somebody into thinking this could be a cute, romantic movie?
Stephan: Maybe this is a Halloween movie. Maybe the dog was really a lamb? The dog's cute and fluffy.
Allison: The dog is lamb-like! I've never considered that.
Joe: He's not silenced though. He's very loud, in all his scenes.
Pam: True.
Joe: Okay, so... another question that seems like a joke question, but it's really not. Glad to have Allison N*** back on the record. Wizard of Oz is definitely still one of my favorite movie discussions I've had. So, glad to have you back. What are some connections we can find between Silence of the Lambs and Wizard of Oz?
[laughter]
Joe: It seems like a joke question, but it's a serious question. As we're going through this, I'm starting to form a theory that all these movies are connected in some way. I started to create this big chart with lines connecting each movie, with reasons why they're connected.
Pam: Wait, where is this chart? Am I going to walk down our basement and find red yarn on a bulletin board? [laughter]
Stephan: Pepe Silvia!
Joe: But for real, how me fill in the blanks. What goes on the line between Wizard of Oz and Silence of the Lambs?
Stephan: That's.... do you have anything in mind?
Joe: I have some things that I think are comparisons, but I'd like to hear your take.
Allison: I think you can draw some parallels between Clarice and Dorothy. They're far from home. They're on their own.
Stephan: She's kind of living in man's world. She's a strong female character in a world full of men, but she's definitely taking charge, taking lead. I've never thought about this... [laughter]
Pam: The guy who's there is the "mastermind." Hannibal is more impressive of a mastermind. But the Wizard appears at first to be a mastermind.
Joe: Right, and we talked about in the Oz interview how the Wizard sent them to their death, right?
Allison: Where she had to prove herself in order to get where she was trying to go, which for Dorothy was home, and for Clarice was the FBI.
Joe: I kind of compared the Wicked Witch of the East to Buffalo Bill, in that, to the characters in the town that they lived, they were the main villain. To us as the audience, by the end of the movie, they were not the main villain. It ended up being the Witch of the West and Hannibal that were the actual threat.
Allison: Interesting.
Joe: And we can also compare the Lion's "King of the Forrest" to Buffalo Bill's tucked-penis karaoke!
Stephan: They're pretty much the same. [laughter]
Pam: He even has a little bow in his hair! [laughter]
Allison: It's true though. They're scenes that make you ask, "Why was this included? But if it wasn't included, would I have missed it?" We were talking about this last night. Because you [Stephan] were like, "We didn't need to see this." but I was like, it's so jarring... you need it.
Stephan: I don't know if it's needed, but it definitely works, and it definitely solidifies his weirdness.
Allison: If you didn't fully understand what Buffalo Bill was trying to achieve, that scene is like, "Oh... I get it."
Pam: Because doesn't he have part of the skins on?
Stephan: He's got the scalped wig.
Allison: You see on the mannequin half of the suit. With only one boob... which we can get to later...
Pam: He's waiting for someone else for that other boob, I guess.
Joe: I feel like Buffalo Bill, who's seemed like—I mean, I didn't give a shit about this movie in '91, I was three years old—but it seemed like, from reading about it, that there was a lot of people that misunderstood what Buffalo Bill was all about. LGBT communities were offended, like, "Why did the only gay character in this movie have to be a killer?"
Stephan: I think it's a valid argument. But I don't know if I agree with it. I think it's just an element of his character. It's not that this trans man wants to... that all trans men are violent, or something like that. I don't get that. I think it's kind of a stretch. In the movie, they try to justify his behavior. They say something along the lines of... I forget.
Allison: Well, Hannibal says something like, "He's not really transsexual, he just thinks that he is because of years of abuse and trauma. He's trying to find his own identity."
Stephan: Although, I think that's still problematic, because that's still kind of a misunderstanding of transexuality. I don't think the movie portrays it in a great light, but I don't think it's as bad as the LGBT community might've made it out to be. And again... I wasn't old enough to know the impact. What I do think is interesting, though, is Jonathan Demme's next movie is Philadelphia. I think the LGBT community is very pro- that movie. I wonder if that was in response to the criticisms from Silence of the Lambs?
Joe: And if it helps your argument, the director didn't even believe that Buffalo Bill was gay at all. I got a quote here. "He wasn't a gay character. He was a tormented man who hated himself and wished he was a woman because that would have made him as far away from himself as he possibly could be."
Allison: Right, and there's some Nazi symbolism happening with Buffalo Bill too. I read an article, I think it was the actor stating, "I never intended to play him as gay, or queer, or a member of that community." But pointing out that this was an individual who had gone through multiple identity shifts, and tried to find an identity that fits him, and just had a twisted mind to take it in this direction. Is it a good representation regardless? No, but...
Joe: It's hard to give a good representation of a serial killer.
Allison: For the '90s, there wasn't going to be a good representation of different orientations, so... it's unfortunate. But I don't think that was intention of the film.
Stephan: So something—and I don't know if I'm jumping the gun—actually, it's my interview, I can say whatever I want.
Joe: Yeah, do it up man! I'm tired of you coming out of the bullpen! It's your fucking interview this time, man!
Stephan: One of my favorite things about the movie—and probably one of the most unconformable—is the amount of direct eye-contact. Like, the idea that you're being "watched." So Clarice is in a man's world, right? Most of the interactions she's had are with men, outside of the one girlfriend she has. Very few of the exchanges are a two-person shot. They are all very up-close on the eyes and face, and I feel like everyone who is looking at her is objectifying her. And that's an unwanted feeling. But you look at Buffalo Bill, and he wants to be a woman, he wants the focus to be on him, he wants to be objectified. I think it's an interesting element, making him trans for that reason. So, maybe it seems a little insensitive, but I think it's interesting. It's like, well, women don't want to be looked at that way, but he wants you to look. He does these heinous murders because that way you will see him.
Joe: And also, he's looking directly at the camera, for most of his shit. Same with Hannibal. I'm not sure if they were trying to make that a serial killer thing. But Jodie Foster doesn't really look at the camera directly. A lot of the shots, she's looking off to the side. I guess that plays into the "her being watched." The camera is playing from the perspective of the watchers.
Pam: Didn't she have a crazy stalker in real life too?
Allison: Oh yeah!
Joe: After this movie?
Pam: I don't know if it was before or after. She's definitely had a stalker in real life, it was significant. [looking it up] John Hinckley Jr.
Allison: I think the stalker was portrayed in the musical Assassins?
Stephan: Oh yeah! I think that he was played by... Chris McBride.
Pam: Weird.
Joe: Okay, hold up...
Stephan: So in the Sondheim musical Assassins, it's all these killers—
Allison: He sings a duet with Squeaky Fromme? One of the Manson girls.
Stephan: "Unworthy of Your Love," which I think is one of the best songs in the show. That's Jodie Foster's stalker.
Joe: The character is based on him?
Allison: The character is him. He tried to assassinate Reagan to impress Jodie Foster.
Stephan: Which is crazy.
Allison: She probably wasn't impressed by that...
Joe: So there is a musical based on this movie. Unlike the other movies that we've talked about that had musicals based on them, this one is unofficial. It almost comes off like a parody. It's called SILENCED! With all caps, and an exclamation point.
Allison: That's never a good sign.
Joe: I listened to a few songs. It was pretty funny. The Clarice character had a very heavy lisp, a heavy Southern tilt, to the point that you could tell they were making fun of her. One of the songs was called "If I Could Smell Her Cunt," which Hannibal sings from his jail cell.
Stephan: I wish it was Miggs, jerking off while he sings about it.
Pam: And then he swallows his tongue at the end of it.
Stephan: When did it come out?
Joe: Apparently it started out as an internet joke? Like an online community, making some of the songs, and it snowballed into an off-Broadway type deal.
Stephan: An early Harry Potter: The Musical-type thing.
Joe: Yeah, we can go into all the stuff inspired by this movie, or what it was inspired by. Again, I kind of see this interview as a sequel to the Wizard of Oz interview, and we definitely talked about all these subjects then. Like—it was based on a book, and what are the differences, etc.
Allison: And similar to my response for Wizard of Oz... have you [Stephan] read or seen anything related?
Stephan: I haven't read anything related. I haven't seen the sequels. I haven't seen the TV show.
Allison: He's a Silence of the Lambs purist!
Stephan: I just love this movie.
Pam: The other ones are probably not as good.
Stephan: I hear Manhunter is good. The original movie version.
Joe: Oh, yeah! That was... the first prequel was a rewrite of that movie, I think?
Stephan: Yeah. Red Dragon.
Allison: Red Dragon's not bad.
Joe: Hannibal is the sequel, so they're trying to catch him. Hannibal Rising looked real bad, according to the Wikipedia article I read.
Pam: And Anthony Perkins is not in it?
Joe: That's the only one he's not in.
Pam: So you already know that it's bad, based on that.
Joe: I'm surprised nobody's read the book though.
Allison: I read it. I read it in high school.
Joe: It was pretty close to the movie?
Allison: From what I remember, it was pretty close. There were scenes in the movie... I hadn't seen the movie in a long time, but rewatching the movie, I felt like I was remembering scenes from the book. Which was weird, because I don't remember a lot of books that I read anymore.
Pam: Was the book called The Silence of the Lambs?
Joe: Yeah. And I couldn't find too many differences. It was a lot closer to the source material than Wizard of Oz.
Allison: I think they trimmed a lot of stuff about Buffalo Bill.
Joe: Right, because some of it was from his perspective, right?
Allison: His character gets kind of chopped up a little bit. From what I read the other night, there's more explanation for his trauma and his personality, why he's doing what he's doing, that they kind of sum up. In the book, Clarice or the other FBI guy go to one of the hospitals, and talk to a doctor that would've been treating people with gender reassignment surgery about what to look for. They dig into that a little more.
Stephan: They kind of skim over that in the movie.
Allison: They do skim over it. Like, "Oh, we called up hospitals, and his name was on a list!" Great! [laughter] "We're going to the wrong house right now!"
Pam: I love that scene, when they're going to the wrong house entirely.
Joe: Was there a TV show that did that? Breaking Bad or something? Where it was cross-cutting, but it ended up being two different houses? What was that from?
Pam: This Is Us? [laughter]
Joe: "It's a completely different decade!"
Pam: But I loved that, when they did that in the movie. [Editor's note: Someone help me out with this, because I don't know how to google the answer to what other movie or TV show this type of thing was in. I'll edit this note and give you credit!]
Allison: Seeing it several times, it's still so intense.
Stephan: Even last night, knowing what's going to happen, I was like, "Oh my god."
Pam: And the scene where the power's cut, and she's walking around, it's just incredible. Do you have anything about—do you know if they filmed it in pitch black? Was Jodie Foster not able to see anything?
Allison: She really does sell what she's trying to do. I had kind of forgotten how good Jodie Foster is, and how believable she is. We've talked about how the male gaze objectifies her, but I feel like the movie doesn't sexualize her in any way. She's not "hot." She's not a "hot lady detective." She's a student, and she's trying to be professional.
Stephan: All of her traits—she's very strong, she's very wise, she's brave as shit.
Joe: You don't think the male characters sexualize her at all?
Allison: I think they do, but I think the way the movie...
Joe: The movie is portraying these dudes as scumbags.
Allison: Exactly. They're kind of creepy.
Pam: The other small-town cops in that town.
Allison: They're either being creepy or belittling, or they're dismissive, or they're... the bug guys. So, harmless—
Stephan: But the bug guys are still hitting on her! And still being kind of creepy dudes. [laughter]
Pam: I forgot about the bug guys.
Joe: Me too.
Allison: I also forgot about the bug guys.
Joe: Aw, poor bug guys. We all forgot about them.
Allison: They're at the party at the end! They get cake, and pictures.
Pam: They were pretty essential in figuring the whole thing out.
Joe: I guess that's another thing—the bugs symbolizing the "metamorphosis" of Bill.
Pam: As Hannibal points out.
Allison: But is Buffalo Bill the only character in this movie who is trying to go through a metamorphosis? Clarice is trying to go from student to detective.
Stephan: And she's trying to break the mold of the other female students, who probably haven't had such an opportunity, because of their gender. And she's fucking crushing it, doing better than all the guys, making everyone look foolish.
Allison: Really making everyone look foolish.
Joe: So what does that say about Hannibal, that he's the most comfortable in his own skin? ...No pun intended.
Allison: I think he's already a butterfly. He knows who he is. He embraces that.
Stephan: I think he needs to change. I just don't think he wants to change.
Allison: But I feel like... the scene toward the end, when he attacks both of the guards. I feel like, every time I see that scene, I think, "There's gotta be another way to incapacitate this guard than biting his face." But it's just who he is! He wants to bite this guard in the face.
Stephan: But think about the form of combat you are not prepared for as a police officer—someone biting you in the face. You might be expecting him to swing, you might be expecting him to reach for your gun, or kick you in the balls. You're definitely not expecting someone to grab your face and bite it.
Pam: Well, you should be expecting that with Hannibal Lecter. They couldn't have known he had the key to the handcuffs in his mouth, but still...
Allison: Protect your face.
Pam: They were pretty lax about it.
Joe: That's probably a good segue to talk about why this movie is scary. Do we all agree that it's a "scary" movie?
Stephan: I would say scary. For me, even rewatching it last night—it had been a few years since I'd seen it last—and there were certain things, I was like, "Wow, this really plays up on all of my fears." I am very afraid of insects. So pretty much the whole bug guy scene creeps me out, and gives me the chills.
Pam: And all the moths flying around?
Stephan: And they find the pod in her mouth, and it's just like, "This is really gross."
Joe: Is it more creepy than scary?
Stephan: No, because it also plays up on a lot of traditional fears. Like the idea of being stalked. That's really terrifying! That's not just creepy, that's very scary, and dangerous.
Pam: Because it could happen to you! I feel like I watched a lot of serial killer stuff this year. I watched the Ted Bundy thing, we watched Mindhunter. It's so scary because that's all true. It's all things that have happened to people.
Allison: I do feel like the way that Catherine gets kidnapped is a very classic SVU-type scene. A woman coming home from work, has groceries—
Joe: Playing "American Girl."
Allison: —an unsuspecting man with a broken arm, needing help getting a couch in. And she stupidly gets into the van.
Pam: I don't know if it's because I've seen this movie so many times, or just because it's 2019, but I would never fucking help someone with that.
Allison: And she's a fairly unsympathetic victim.
Joe: Right! When she's like "Get the fuck back here!" to Clarice.
Allison: "You fucking bitch!" I do love that.
Joe: Who among us wouldn't do that?
Stephan: It's definitely funny, but I would leave her ass in that well. [laughter]
Allison: But I do feel like that scene is like, "It could happen to anyone." You stop to help a stranger, and that stranger could kidnap you to do who knows what to you. And I think that plays on some very real fears from the '80s and '90s—kids getting snatched up, things like that. It plays up a lot of real fears, and takes a lot of serial killer tropes that people were familiar with, and turns them into these new characters. And you're like, "Great, now I have to be afraid of this guy too." And bugs! And the dark!
Stephan: And close corridors, if you're a little claustrophobic too. I feel like it does a good job using very general fears, and incorporating them into the movie.
Joe: For me personally, I get more creeped out when it's unsettling, versus a sudden burst of violence of something. Like, just the way Hannibal looks at Clarice creeped me out more than a dude being crucified.
Stephan: I agree with that. I don't really like direct eye contact. I feel like I haven't looked at anyone in the eye for too long. There's so much direct eye contact in that movie. Yeah, Hannibal is in your head, because he's looking at you directly in the eye!
Allison: The intense framing of their last scene together, where he has his head tilted down, and his eyes pointed up at the camera, and he's not blinking, and it's the tightest of close-ups... it's so unsettling. And you know that he is not a threat to her, but you still feel threatened by him. In this scene, he's not threatening her, but he's just such an intimidating character. I think that's why he's such a memorable presence in the film.
Joe: Actually, according to AFI—the American Film Institute—he was ranked the number one villain of all time.
Stephan: Oh, really?
Allison: Which is crazy, because he's not the main villain in this movie.
Pam: He doesn't do anything.
Stephan: I think we tried to look it up—someone said he was on screen for only sixteen minutes, someone else said twenty.
Allison: We weren't sure if they were doing literally when he was on the screen, or included all the scenes that he was in.
Joe: I know it was the second-least amount of screen time for any winner of Best Lead Actor.
Stephan: Was the first Anne Hathaway?
Joe: Nah, it was some dude from the '50s, from a movie I'd never heard of. [Editor's note: Some clarifications. According to everywhere I can find, Hannibal is on screen for sixteen minutes. Stephan is right in that Hathaway was in Les Mis for only fifteen minutes. For Best Lead Actor specifically, Hopkins is second to David Niven in 1958's Separate Tables, in which Niven is on screen for fifteen minutes and 38 seconds.] But this was a cool list to look at. The Wicked Witch of the West was number four! Mr. Potter was number six!
Allison: A good collection.
Joe: So what does that say about your three, as a collective, that your favorite movies have such strong villains?
Allison: And they're all such different movies. Is there a connection between It's a Wonderful Life and Silence of the Lambs?
Joe: Oh, absolutely.
Allison: Is there?
Joe: Yeah.
Pam: What is that connection?
Joe: Wait... until I can do a little more research.
Allison: George Bailey covets a better life, so he and Buffalo Bill are pretty much the same person.
Pam: He's far away from home too, right? And he's objectified... No, I'm just kidding.
Allison: Zuzu is clearly the lamb. [laughter]
Joe: To be fair, Clarice and George Bailey were both in the top ten of Heroes. No Dorothy.
Allison: Well, that's fair. She's far more passive in her journey than Clarice is.
Joe: Yeah, I don't even think she was in the top fifty.
Allison: I get that. I'll take the L.
Joe: Do you mind if I use the bathroom real quick? Unless anyone has anything else to add about Dorothy's omission from this list?
Stephan: ...I think you're good.
[bathroom break]
Joe: Okay, I found the connection between Wonderful Life and Silence of the Lambs. I needed the silence of the bathroom to think. The white noise of my urine hitting porcelain. So, imagine George Bailey, after everyone leaves his house in the last scene. The phone rings. He picks it up. It's fucking Mr. Potter, who says, "I'm still out there. I'm going to keep fucking with you."
Pam: Well, he is still out there.
Joe: Right. As too is Hannibal!
Pam: But Hannibal doesn't fuck with Clarice.
Joe: Watch the sequel!
Stephan: He's not out for Clarice, though. He's definitely out there to eat some people, and definitely kill Chilton.
Joe: Mr. Potter wasn't out for George Bailey specifically. He was fucking everyone in town.
Pam: No, I think he was out for George Bailey. He found the money, and he didn't give it back, because he knew it was George Bailey's. He was on his way to give it back to the bank, and he was like, "No no no, turn me around."
Joe: Because it promoted his own twisted self-interests. Not because he had a personal vendetta against George.
Pam: I think he did have a personal vendetta. Against the Bailey boys.
Joe: I'd be happy to continue to go down this rabbit hole with you.
Pam: Not right now.
Joe: We briefly mentioned the Oscars before, but I want to talk about that. It won a lot of major awards.
Stephan: Actually, my other favorite movie was nominated for an Oscar the same year.
Pam: What movie?
Stephan: Beauty and the Beast.
Allison: The man contains multitudes.
Stephan: '91 was a good year for me.
Joe: I want to quote you from the Wizard of Oz interview: "How often does the most popular movie, or even the movie that I thought was the best that year, actually win Best Picture?" So I thought it was interesting that your favorite movie actually won that year.
Stephan: Because they intentionally didn't have it go against Dances with Wolves!
Allison: It was interesting that it was released in February, and didn't win until the following year. Not a lot of Oscar-winning movies do that. I don't think the studio believed in it enough to release it during Oscar season? But that movie held on for eleven months.
Stephan: Which speaks volumes. And apparently, this was the first movie to have a VHS release, and then go on to win the Oscar. I thought that was pretty interesting.
Pam: I do remember going to Blockbuster, and seeing a whole shelf of that movie, the cover with the butterfly on the mouth, and just being like [makes shuddering sound].
Allison: It's a jarring image.
Stephan: And it has the little skull head on it. It's terrifying! So what did it win for? It won Actress, Actor, Picture...
Joe: Director.
Stephan: And Adapted Screenplay, right?
Joe: Yup. It only lost in Sound and Editing. Both to Terminator 2.
Stephan: ...I quite like Terminator 2. Third favorite movie...? It's not. [laughter]
Joe: Okay, but does... I guess after the fact, when critics are all in on a certain movie, TV show, book, does that affect your opinion at all? Are you that type of person? I know I'm that type of person. Like, I will really like a TV show, but then read a critical review of it, and be like, "You're right! This is a fucking great TV show!" People convince me that it's even better than I originally thought.
Allison: But is the opposite true? Where you'll like something, and you'll read a bad review of it? And you're like, "Man, maybe I didn't like that as much as I thought I did."
Joe: I dunno. Pam had mentioned This Is Us. Critics don't seem to be all in on This Is Us.
Pam: Critics don't like it?
Joe: I mean, AVClub reviews it, but that's one person.
Pam: It's definitely not at the level of other shows that AVClub usually reviews. But for mass audiences, it's popular. Like, our parents watch it.
Joe: So no, I don't think I've ever liked something, and someone said it was bad, and I agreed with them. But I think definitely the opposite, if I already like something, and someone is talking about it, I tend to like it more because of that.
Allison: It feels vindicating—"I was right about this!"
Stephan: I do wonder... because, even now, I will not go see a movie unless it was well-reviewed by a friend, or a critic. I saw this movie way after it had won, already knowing the character of Hannibal, knowing Jodie Foster... personally...
Joe: You're the stalker?!
Stephan: So I do wonder, if this movie came out now... well, if it came out now, it would be well-reviewed, and of course I would go see it. But I would also say that this is a genre of movie I gravitate toward. I feel like I always want to see movies of this genre. And that's probably because I really like this movie. It was one of my first introductions to good movies in this genre. I'm used to crappy movies...
Pam: Because there's so many movies that come out in this genre, horror...
Stephan: Most of them are so bad. I grew up watching Tales from the Crypt with my dad. Looking back, so much TV-14 stuff that I should not have been watching when I was young. But it's super cheesy, and none of it is good. But I love that! And it's a little scary, a little spooky, whatever. So I just always gravitated toward that. So this movie would be an easy sell for me now, because that's just what I like.
Allison: And I feel like I'd be really hesitant to go see it in theaters.
Stephan: Yes. But I am too easily influence by reviews.
Joe: I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Stephan: But sometimes I miss out on things that I could enjoy. So many of the other movies that I like from my past are shitty movies. My favorite holiday film is Jingle All the Way. That movie is terrible! But I love that movie! And I'm sure that movie got ripped to shreds in reviews. I know this is something you always talk about regarding "favorite movies." What makes something your favorite? It's that personal connection. I mean, yeah, a movie could be garbage, but there's something that personally connects it to me.
Pam: I feel like kids, growing up, you're less likely to see something because it's well-reviewed. It's more like, "This is a popular movie that's out, I'm going to see it, because all my friends are going to see it." Even now, I'm putting on crap movies, because they're kids movies. "Let's watch Trolls." It's a kids movie that might keep Willow's attention for a little bit. I watched Hotel Transylvania like three times. But... I kind of like that.
Joe: "Pam's favorite movie of all time." [laughter] I feel like we're kind of getting there, Stephan explaining why this is his favorite movie of all time. I thought it would be interesting, in the same vein as interviewing a serial killer, if we could try to guess, or maybe psychoanalyze Stephan, in terms of what we know about him as a person.
Allison: Mhm. Yes. Great.
Joe: And how we can connect him to this movie. I mean, Allison knows you the best. So Allison, in a vacuum, knowing Stephan. and knowing that this is his favorite movie, why would you say that this is his favorite?
Allison: It's interesting. When we first had this discussion, months ago, when you first introduced this concept, Stephan said that this was his favorite movie, and I said, "Really? This is your favorite movie?" I know a lot of movies that Stephan likes, and this is one I would not have immediately guessed. But then after watching it last night—well, at first, I was like, "Oh yeah, this movie is a lot better than I remembered." Because all I remembered was Hannibal Lecter's stuff, Buffalo Bill's stuff, and then I knew there was a lot of Clarice stuff in the middle, and I wasn't sure if I cared about that. But I do! It's really good! But when Stephan pointed out that this movie has so many things that you don't like in the world—bugs, darkness, enclosed spaces—I was like, "Do you like this movie because it challenges you?" It's not just a standard horror movie. You watch a lot of silly scary movies when you're working from home. The crappy Hulu things.
Stephan: ...I watch good scary movies too.
Allison: I'll come home, and you'll be like, "Oh my god, I watched the dumbest movie." [laughter] But this movie, it challenges you. It doesn't just try to scare you. It gives you all of the things you don't like, but it's packaging them in a really enticing way.
Joe: So you're saying that Stephan is someone who likes a challenge.
Allison: Yes. In real life. [mumbling] That's why he likes me... [laughter]
Stephan: I want to hear what everyone else has to say.
Pam: I was going to say, weren't you a Psych major?
Stephan: Yup.
Pam: So I feel like that, with the psych thing, getting in the mind of someone, finding out what makes them tick.
Joe: That's what my notes said too. We watched Mindhunter, and all that was about was understanding someone—and I guess this is a snake eating its own tail, in that we are trying to psychoanalyze you, and I'm saying that you like to psychoanalyze us...?
Stephan: "Why do people do the things that they do and like what they like?" You hit the nail on the head.
Joe: That's your fucking job. You work in behavioral health.
Stephan: I actually picked this field, because it was something people told me I was good at. When I was growing up, people would say, "Oh, your a pretty good listener." And, ya know... young people don't really talk about what they're gonna do, unless they definitively know, like, "Oh, I'm gonna be a cop." ...Sorry, that came off wrong. Being a cop is a great profession! [laughter]
Joe: Whole different conversation.
Stephan: But I feel like it's always been one of my strengths. I've always felt like I'm good at watching people. We're here talking, but interviews are something that I would generally shy away from, because I don't like to say too much. You guys have known me for a long time, but I'm generally quieter. Without alcohol, I'm usually one of the more quiet ones.
Joe: I don't know if I agree with that.
Stephan: I mean, personally, I feel like I'm less verbose.
Joe: You're less likely to speak abrasively toward your friends.
Stephan: That's fair, yes. I dunno. I just like observing... not a in voyeuristic way.
Allison: "Who do you identify with in this movie?" [laughter]
Stephan: I don't have to answer that! [laughter] But you could argue that Clarice is doing the same thing to Hannibal. She doesn't know Hannibal, she's observing him and communicating with him to get more insight into why he is the way he is, so she can get more insight into Buffalo Bill's psyche. That's something that's always been inherently interesting to me, which is why I love the behavioral field, which weirdly shaped me, I guess? This is way too much to think about, Joe. [laughter]
Joe: Well, alright, but let's go further in that direction. Say you were the one trying to interview Hannibal Lecter. Him being the perceptive monster that he is, how would he try to break you?
Pam: Like, what's your lamb story? [laughter]
Joe: Yeah, exactly.
Stephan: I think what he would do specifically to me is what he does to Clarice in the very beginning. He picks out very obvious physical characteristics. It's very easy to tell what people are insecure about. Often times, people with teeth issues will cover their mouth, that's something their insecure about. For me, I kind of... well, I won't say what mine are. [laughter] But I feel like he would be very quick to point out things in my physicality that would give you insight into what I'm insecure about. Until the third interview, when he's delving deeper into, ya know, "What's your traumatic story?" I tried to save the lambs! [laughter] Guys, I'm absolutely not running out into the cold with a lamb. That lamb is going die. And probably be a delicious lamb chop. [laughter]
Joe: Yeah, I wasn't trying to get you to tell a traumatic story or anything.
Stephan: And I'm not going to. No, but I do think it would be physical characteristics, because that's the easiest thing to see right away. Even in an interview, half the time the reason someone doesn't get a second interview is because of some physicality.
Joe: For Clarice, it was her accent, right?
Allison: "Your good purse and your cheap shoes."
Stephan: Right. And she didn't say anything about herself, but he could pick up on all those things, because of how she was presenting herself.
Allison: I feel like that's another fear that people have. That you're going to be "found out." Clarice comes into the movie, she accepts the assignment, and she's very... you can tell she's a bit unsure. But that moment when Hannibal starts picking her apart like a catty bitch. It's kind of delicious to watch, but there's a fear of being on the other side of that, of someone being able to pick out all of your flaws.
Joe: No, that's pretty scary for sure. It definitely—not to talk about myself that much—but I definitely agree that it's an interesting part of this movie. I'm just very interested in why people act certain ways, why people think certain things. I guess that's kind of—ostensibly—why I'm doing these interviews.
Stephan: A social experiment.
Joe: I know it's mainly to just to hang out with people. but I like to pretend that it's so we can try to understand more about each other. Not in a creepy serial killer way, but... it's definitely interesting.
Stephan: The movies we've identified as our favorite—as you said before, is kind of a B.S. question—but I think it says a lot about us. I think all of your psychoanalysis was correct. I think everyone is spot on, as much as I'd like to deny it.
Joe: Okay, so then speak plainly about why this is your favorite movie. Did any of that play into this?
Stephan: I mean, I can definitely look back and say that I've been influenced by this movie. This isn't why I originally chose to go back to this movie. This is a movie that I saw way too early. I think my grandma just had it on, and I was like, "...what is a cunt?" [laughter]
Joe: That's a big theme in these interviews—grandparents that just don't give a shit.
Stephan: So this is just a movie that was on. And it wasn't until I rewatched it in high school, all the way through, that I was like, "Oh my god, Buffalo Bill is the actual villain of this movie." I had just seen bits and pieces up to that point. And when you're a kid, what's the scariest thing? Hannibal Lecter staring at you. I feel like, outside of the behavioral stuff and social science stuff, I just love the suspense. The movie is exciting, but it's cerebral. I love this genre, and this movie knocks it out of the park.
Allison: And it's gorier than I remembered.
Stephan: It's definitely bloodier than I remembered.
Joe: They kind of hold it close to the chest for a little bit. It's not a gore-fest or anything.
Stephan: Until the final twenty minutes, when they have the angel gutted—
Allison: He's wearing the face.
Joe: Even leading up to that, though, I thought personally the creepiest part of the movie was when Lecter had the police baton, the way he was swinging it, with just a blank expression.
Allison: And the light spray from him. It's not like he's splashed with blood, but it's just a light mist.
Stephan: And even then, you never see that officer's face.
Pam: Right before that, he's sitting in there listening to music, and he's doing the same thing [makes conductor motions with hands]. So it's just as easy as listening to music for him. And all the gore is with Lecter, pretty much. I mean, they show the girls, the victims of Buffalo Bill.
Allison: Yeah, you see some pictures, and you see the one corpse.
Stephan: But you don't actually see Buffalo Bill hurt anyone.
Allison: You don't see him doing anything, really. He's wearing a scalp... okay, maybe we're being dismissive of all these horrors. [laughter]
Joe: Yeah, "There's no blood, it's just skin!"
Allison: "It's not that bad!" One thing I can never not think is... did the skin suit smell? Or did he treat it in a way that he could sew it...? Because these women had been murdered over the course of several week, right?
Joe: Well, he lotioned them up before he killed them.
Allison: Right, but that's not preserving your skin. That's just to keep your skin nice and soft.
Joe: Maybe he was still lotioning them, even after the skin left the body.
Allison: It's just... something I think about.
Joe: If there's anything we can take away from this movie, it's that skin smells when it's detached from the body.
Allison: I assume!
Stephan: Considering the condition of his house, I don't think he cares about the smell of a human hide. To be honest!
Allison: But he's wearing it! He's going through so much trouble so he can wear it.
Stephan: In the well, there are fingernails and blood. He doesn't care! That dog shits all over the basement!
Pam: There are bugs flying everywhere.
Allison: There is an old woman decaying in the bathtub.
Pam: I always forget about that too.
Allison: I also saw this movie probably too young, and I feel like that image stuck with me. Because it doesn't linger for too long, where you can take in everything from that moment. It's just like, "What the fuck was in that tub?"
Joe: What would you say is the minimum age that you can watch this film?
Stephan: For my own future kids?
Joe: Based on your own personal experience, and based on how you feel you would be as a parent, what age would be okay?
Stephan: I feel like I would be okay if my—
Joe: Infant daughter.
Stephan: No! If my child saw this in their early adolescence, I'd be okay with that.
Allison: What age is that?
Joe: Yeah, commit to an age here.
Stephan: Like twelve years old.
Allison: My gut instinct was thirteen.
Stephan: I would think—I'm just saying about myself—my parents would like to think—if you're reading this, I'm sorry—possibly my parents, when I was twelve, thought I was this saint child, that had never seen anything bloody, or gory, or bad. But we had access to stuff in our youth, and it's only going to get worse. So if my kid can make it to twelve without seeing this movie, that would be a huge victory.
Allison: Or seeing anything worse than this on the internet, then I've done a good job!
Stephan: They're going to see Oldboy before this. [laughter]
Joe: Oh no.
Pam: I feel like seeing this as a teenager, I would be scared of different things than I'm scared of now.
Joe: What would Teenage Pam be scared of?
Pam: I think just the gore stuff? But now, I'm watching it and scared of being stalked, and being the victim of a serial killer. Back then, I would be scared of the Hannibal stuff, with the guards.
Joe: So when I walked in the house earlier while you and Willow were upstairs, and you yelled, "Is that you?!" that was your fear?
Pam: Yeah.
Joe: That I was a serial killer?
Pam: It wouldn't be a serial killer.
Allison: Just a regular killer. [laughter]
Pam: It would be someone who's looking to rob us for money to buy drugs.
Joe: ...We can't end the interview on that note.
Allison: "This interview brought to you by the Port Richmond Neighborhood Association."
Joe: What's something positive we can take away from Silence of the Lambs? Let's end on that.
Pam: They caught Buffalo Bill?
Allison: I think Clarice is a great portrayal of a woman character.
Joe: Sixth best hero of all time!
Allison: I don't know if I'd categorize this movie as a "feminist movie," but I feel like she's smart, she's capable, she's strong. She does, by herself, what so many men in boots cannot accomplish. The scene when all the cops are in the hallway, about to enter the room where Hannibal was kept, and they're doing all these evasive maneuvers. And they look kind of silly? They're kind of bumbling around. But Clarice has approached Lecter by herself, unarmed, on her own. She takes down Buffalo Bill in the darkness, on her own.
Stephan: I think, for me, the example that's the strongest is that crosscut scene, the climax. You see all these bumbling FBI agents, guns toted, a decoy flower box, agents in a plane—
Allison: All the SWAT gear, storming the house—
Stephan: —like, "We're going in!" And they ring the doorbell. You think it's Buffalo Bill's house, but it's an empty house. And then there's Clarice.
Allison: Who's just showing up to ask an old lady some questions.
Stephan: And she's the one who has the epic encounter. And she totally handles the whole situation on her own.
Allison: Juxtaposing that to a scene early in the movie, where they're doing a drill, and she gets shot. She doesn't check the corner, her partner does fine, whatever. Watching that kind of growth, from this cadet who's still learning, sitting on the dryer with her roommate talking about the case, to then taking down the actual serial killer, on her own. Crazy. It's empowering!
Stephan: I think it's a good movie about growth. Even though it's a short amount of time, you definitely see Clarice grow a lot.
Joe: From out of her cocoon.
Stephan: She's a skull-headed butterfly.
Allison: It's all shrouded in death, but she emerges in the end.
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