Welcome back to Your Favorite Movie, where we bring a good friend into the submarine, and attempt to find the shark in their favorite film.
This week's shark victim is Frank F******. Frank is one of those friends who has been a friend so long that I don't remember when or where we met. He was a grade younger, but we ended up going to the same grade school, high school, and college, so every time I thought I was rid of Frank, he kept popping back up. For this, I am thankful.
I'm also quite thankful that Frank was willing to talk about his favorite movie with us. His choice, after much deliberation, was The Aquatic Life with Steve Zissou, the shaggy dog of Wes Anderson's filmography.
I am particularly happy with this interview, no small thanks to Frank's ability to ably talk about why he likes this movie (it's harder than you think!), and also due to some great input by Pam (as always), and by Frank's wife, Courtney. The discussion is transcribed below with Frank's permission, and edited slightly so that the audience is left wondering—so what did go wrong at that Presentation B.V.M. church hall improv show?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank: Yes. It's a little all over the place, but it's not as messy as people think. I know critics were down on it when it first came out.
Joe: And I think "messy" was the reasoning at the time.
Frank: I think a lot of people think that this movie is very glib, that the characters talk to each other very glibly, in that weird Wes Anderson tone. I don't think it is. I think it's actually just a bunch of quirky people. I think it's more on point and more centered—especially watching it again, watching it two times since we scheduled this—it's more on point than I think people give it credit for. But I get it. It's messy. It's weird, because if people go in thinking that he's going to go after this shark—he talks about it at the beginning, and then it kind of doesn't come up again until the very end. So it's a meandering thing in that.
Joe: And when you say it comes across as "glib," that would kind of describe a lot of the Wes Anderson movies. This kind of deadpan style.
Frank: But I think it's... it's funny, because you did Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?—I feel like people don't give criticism like that when it's a play. When people talk to each other in a very specific way in plays, it doesn't get the same criticism. In movies, they expect you to talk a little more naturally. In a lot of Anderson's movies, he's thinking of them as plays. It's more a specific delivery than glib, or even "quirky." I also think he highlights—he doesn't in this one, but he uses Bob Balaban a lot. He uses Jeff Goldblum and Bill Murray so often—especially in this movie, Jeff Goldblum and Bill Murray have such specific ways that they speak anyway. I don't think it's acting, I think that's how Jeff Goldblum and Bill Murray talk in real life.
Joe: And we're definitely gonna dig into Bill Murray at some point.
Pam: Who was the first person you said?
Frank: Bob Balaban.
Pam: Who is he in the movie?
Frank: He's not in The Life Aquatic. Did you see Moonrise Kingdom? He's the narrator in that.
Courtney: Do you see him?
Frank: Yeah, he's the guy that's always standing, he explains about lighthouses and stuff.
Pam: Oh, okay.
Courtney: Bald. Glasses. Short.
Frank: In Seinfeld, he's the NBC executive that falls in love with Elaine?
Joe: I can picture him.
Frank: Ed Norton has a weird way of talking. Anjelica Huston I feel like has a strange way of talking.
Pam: I love her in this. She's great.
Frank: I think she's so good.
Courtney: She's the one person in his movies—I feel like everyone else has such a pretentiousness about them, but Anjelica Huston, it's like, "Okay, I feel more connected to you."
Joe: She's more "cool." Everyone else gives off an awkward, nervous energy. She doesn't do that.
Courtney: Like, "I'm above this."
Pam: Smoking her cigarette.
Frank: Even Owen Wilson—Owen Wilson didn't write this one, but he was Wes Anderson's writing partner—
Joe: It was the first one he didn't co-write.
Frank: He wrote this one with Noah Baumbach.
Joe: Who was The Squid and the Whale.
Frank: In fact, I was listening to the director's commentary, and they were talking about how Noah Baumbach and Wes Anderson had traded scripts to look at. He gave Wes Anderson Squid and the Whale, and Anderson gave Baumbach The Royal Tenenbaums. And they liked each other's scripts so much that they said "We should work together." Another thing about this being messy—they weren't really following plot. They came up with all these characters, they wanted it to be very character-specific. And then they said, "Okay, what would these characters do?", and then they fleshed it out that way. The only thing that I think is messy and that doesn't hold up is that they cut out a big part of Cate Blanchett's character. Her character does not get enough stuff that she should.
Joe: She was legitimately pregnant during this movie, right? Did that have anything to do with it? That she just couldn't...
Frank: I don't know. I know that they were very surprised when she found out she was pregnant.
Joe: It was a surprise to her, right?
Frank: She was getting tested for costumes, and she passed out, and she was like, "That's weird." ...What was the question? Sorry.
Joe: I don't think there was a question. [laughter] You brought up a lot of good points. Something that I hadn't considered before you said it was that this seemed like a play, a little bit. Especially with the cut-out of the ship, and how they move from Stage A to Stage B. Which is so cool, how they did all that.
Frank: Even the ending is a curtain call. They all come out one by one. I love that ending. Some people could think that was corny, but I think it was so good.
Joe: Yeah, so let's talk about the critics' reactions to this back in the day. It's Wes Anderson's lowest score on Rotten Tomatoes. But it's kind of been revisited recently, like, "Maybe everybody was wrong about this?" I couldn't find any instances of a critic saying it was bad then, and then recanting ten years later. So I wonder if this is just other people coming to its defense.
Frank: The vox populi winning.
Joe: Exactly.
Frank: And I think Wes Anderson is one of those directors that fans get very passionate about, and try to defend him. I also think that—no one really saw Bottle Rocket, but Rushmore, for being quirky, was also very mainstream, compared to this. The Royal Tenenbaums—I don't know what people liked about Royal Tenenbaums that they didn't like about Life Aquatic. Maybe they were worried that he was a one-trick guy?
Joe: This was before the "Wes Anderson shtick" was established, perhaps.
Frank: Yes. When you do the same trick twice—using the Rolling Stones music, doing the slo-mo stuff, having his set actors and stuff—what's the difference... Not to get too sidetracked, but Paul Thomas Anderson had the same issue with Magnolia. Magnolia had the same cast as Boogie Nights. People were so impressed with Boogie Nights, and then with Magnolia, they were like, "Eh, whatever." Then later on, when you look at his work as a whole, then you're like, "Oh. Holy cow." I think when you look at Wes Anderson's work as a whole, and you start to see these things pop up again, in Darjeeling, or Grand Budapest, or Moonrise, I think Life Aquatic makes more sense.
Joe: So now that Wes Anderson's whole thing is established, and he is a celebrated filmmaker, when you look through his whole filmography... when did that change? And why?
Frank: I remember critics liking Darjeeling. Maybe it was just me, but I didn't see it for a while because it looked sort of boring.
Courtney: Is that the one on the train?
Frank: Yeah. But then I loved Fantastic Mr. Fox. Honestly, I think Fantastic Mr. Fox might've unlocked things for people. A lot of the things Anderson does are cartoonish and big and colorful. And I think having it be in a stop-motion animation was an easy transition for people. Like, "Okay, I get what's going on here."
Joe: Mr. Fox was the skeleton key.
Frank: I think so! And then Moonrise Kingdom—which was great. I don't know. I think it might be a mix of Fantastic Mr. Fox being a skeleton key, and Royal Tenenbaums simply holding up. I think Royal Tenenbaums might be his best movie. Probably? It's not my favorite, but it's his best. The fact that that has held up well helps the rest of his work get opened up more.
Joe: That whole idea interests me, about how the general populace could think one thing, and then a decade later. there's this wave of differing opinions. What makes that happen?
Courtney: It's like the Oscars. A lot of the movies that win Best Picture, you don't even know them. You don't know what will hold up best over time.
Frank: When did Life Aquatic come out? 2005?
Joe: Uh... I think so. I can't believe I didn't write it down.
Courtney: I feel like it was earlier.
Frank: It's either '04 or '05.
Courtney: Because Chris, my brother, really liked it. I graduated in 2005, he graduated in 2004. I know it because of Chris.
Pam: [looking it up] 2004.
Frank: I'm glad you brought up the Oscars, because that's a really interesting way of looking at it. You look at it "in the moment," what are people liking about movies? Critically too. I wonder if after... god, no, I don't even want to say that...
Courtney: What?
Frank: I was going to "after 9/11," which is so cheesy. [laughter]
Courtney: Why do you bring up that?
Frank: I feel like people were looking for more vulnerable things. In 2005, Crash won Best Picture.
Joe: I think if you rounded up all these interviews, Crash might be the most mentioned movie, for some fucking reason. [laughter]
Pam: Doesn't everyone hate that movie?
Courtney: I loved that movie when it came out. I saw it, and I was like, "Oh my god."
Frank: Crash did the opposite thing, where, as the years go by, people have dismissed it—
Courtney: It does not hold up.
Frank: —because it's schmaltzy.
Courtney: Pandering.
Frank: Million Dollar Baby won the year before. That's the same thing, right?
Courtney: That's a good movie!
Frank: But people were looking for vulnerable. They were looking for real. You know what? I think that, if Fantastic Mr. Fox is the skeleton key, then animated movies as art, when they critically started to come back into vogue. Like, when Beauty and the Beast was nominated for Best Picture... and then with this. Because it kind of is like an animated movie.
Joe: There is some stop-motion, with the sharks.
Frank: The stop-motion is Henry Selick, who did Nightmare Before Christmas.
Joe: Ah! Okay. I could see that. Could you [Pam] see that? I know you're a big fan of Nightmare.
Pam: I loved all the little sea creatures, I thought they were so cool.
Joe: I wouldn't be able to describe how I could tell the stop-motion is similar in those two movies, but just looking at it, that makes total sense to me. How it's a little choppy, I guess?
Frank: And I think people thought that was cheesy. This was also around the boom of special effects, right? Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc. I think it comes out the same year as Episode III comes out [Editor's note: five months later, but in 2005]. So you have all this CGI that's blowing shit out of the water. And so you expect this ocean movie to be able to do this incredible thing with it. And it's like, "Well, it's not really about that." I think that's intentional too. I keep bringing up animation; I feel like one of the big things about this movie is the idea of looking at something through a child's eyes. A lot of the movie is about how Cate Blanchett and Owen Wilson were huge Steve Zissou fans as kids, and that's a big drive for them. She pushes her editor to be able to do the story, because they admired this person. They were superfans. The "wonder," like the little kid who gives him the seahorse...
Joe: So what, Zissou finds that in himself when he scoops up the nephew [in the final scene]?
Frank: Yeah, and also seeing the shark. The shark looks magical. It doesn't look real, it looks magical, in the way that a kid would see a fish for the first time. It's insane. It's beyond—
Joe: I was kind of shocked how hard that scene hit me.
Frank: It's incredible.
Joe: That was... masterful. I don't know what it is. Maybe because the whole cast was there, that it was some culmination of the movie...
Pam: How it was showing everyone's faces at the same time.
Frank: It's about... I want to talk about this a lot. This movie, I remember, I maybe saw it a little bit after it came out, and then I saw it again, it was just on TV, and I watched it. It was like... this strikes me as—and not even in that these are things I necessarily agree with, or that I saw the world this way—this is my favorite movie about grief. This movie is so good about grief, and specifically about how men process grief, too. It hits me so hard because Bill Murray, who's been this asshole the whole time—he really has been irredeemable. I think that's the issue too, is that people are used to—even if Bill Murray has been a rascally character, like in Ghostbusters or Scrooged, he's still "charming" or whatever.
Pam: "Likable."
Frank: Right. In this, he's really not likable. And then he breaks down in the end, like, "I wonder if he remembers me." And he's dealing with his son's death. He's dealing with his best friend's death. He's dealing with the fact that isn't who he wishes he was. And the fact that they all grab him—yeah, it makes me feel the same way. It really grabs me.
Joe: I guess we can dig into this, the Bill Murray aspect. There's probably a lot to discuss. For me personally, I don't really appreciate Bill Murray as an actor, or as a person, I guess?
Courtney: Same. Don't get it.
Joe: And we can definitely harp on that, I'm ready to dig my teeth in. My own personal feeling while watching this movie was, "Holy shit, Bill Murray is hitting this gear that I didn't realize he had." Ya know? For the first time, I really appreciated him as an actor. Like, fuck, he can do something like that, that actually affects me emotionally! Versus just playing some smarmy asshole who I don't really like.
Frank: He keeps himself at such a distance. In a lot of ways, this movie—because it's also about, Bill Murray was a hero of Wes Anderson's, and the movie says in a lot of ways, "Don't meet your heroes." There's a story about Bill Murray from Rushmore. The studio wasn't going to give Wes Anderson the money for a helicopter shot. The studio was like, "No, that would be way over budget." And Bill Murray wrote him a check for ten-thousand dollars. Wes Anderson just didn't cash it, and he never did the shot. And he framed the check.
[laughter]
Frank: But I think he has a complicated relationship with Bill Murray, because Bill Murray is a complicated guy. And "complicated" is a nice cover-all for people who are assholes. I love Bill Murray, but the more you find out about Bill Murray personally... it's tough.
Joe: Oh yeah, for sure.
Frank: He's kind of a dead-beat dad. Not great with women. The other thing that Wes Anderson is a student of is writing a character for Bill Murray that is pretty close to Bill Murray. I think Bill Murray is playing a character, but I think... I imagine Bill Murray is probably good with kids, probably shitty to women, probably thinks more highly of himself, or wants to think more highly of himself—when he's talking to Cate Blanchett on the air balloon, he's like, "I wish that was me." You wonder—is there a part of Bill Murray that does all the weird "sneak up on people" shit because people expect him to, and he has to fill this role? He has to be "on"?
Joe: "Chicken or egg" you're saying?
Frank: I don't know.
Joe: Well you're saying this is biographical?
Frank: I think so. I don't think it's 100% biographical—it's funny, I thought this would be like, "Oh, this is just a quirky thing"—Wes Anderson is a member of the Jacques Costeau Society. There are definitely mirrors for him.
Joe: I had to read the wikipedia page for Jacques Costeau. I wasn't too familiar. But I appreciated the connection between the Belafonte—Zissou's ship—and Jacques Costeau's ship was the Calypso. Harry Belfonte was the "King of Calypso."
Frank: I think I agree with you Joe. This was the first movie that I started to think of Bill Murray in different ways as an actor.
Joe: And look, I'm not sitting here defending him. But I'm gonna be honest when an actor, even one I don't like, hits me hard like that. With his acting. I'll admit it.
Frank: That might be the criticism too. People were still getting used to shifting from "goofy Bill Murray" to... I think this is a year or two after Lost in Translation.
Joe: That was an Oscar nom for him.
Courtney: I didn't get that movie either. I didn't get him in that movie. I have never gotten the appeal of Bill Murray.
Frank: Your family loves him.
Courtney: I grew up hearing that everything that Bill Murray does is gold.
Joe: You're saying your family appreciated him as an actor? That he's funny and whatnot.
Courtney: Yeah. But I see him in a different way.
Joe: So why do you feel differently?
Courtney: I think it's his acting. I grew up watching Caddyshack as a kid. My brothers loved the scene where he was like, [Bill Murray impression???] "unga unga" like when he's talking with the pitchfork—
Joe: When he's acting like a buffoon.
Courtney: —and he's got the guy up against the wall and he's talking about the Dali Llama. And my brothers would reenact that scene all the time, and I'd be like, "...why is that funny?" I never got it. When Frank and I first started dating, I told Frank that my brothers liked that scene, and Frank laughed. And I was like, what am I missing? What is it about me?! Because my mom loves him, everyone in my family loves everything that he's in, like, "Oh, he's so funny." I thought it was just that my brain was like, "No, you don't like things that other people like."
Joe: And he seems to be this... the general perception is that he's a lovable goofball. Even now.
Pam: What, because he pops up at things?
Joe: Yeah, the meme of him showing up at parties.
Courtney: But he grossed me out in Caddyshack too. He seemed so sweaty and disgusting.
[laughter]
Joe: Which I'm sure was the point.
Courtney: To me, I was like... I could never get past the sweaty disgustingness. It was like, "Why wouldn't he just take a shower? Why does he look so gross?" Maybe that's just my weird thing with germs.
Joe: I guess maybe if he wasn't known as the whole "We want Bill Murray to come to our party, wouldn't that be so funny and cool?" thing, but then to hear stories about him being an asshole in real life. Those two ideas clash in my mind. And that makes me pissed off! How did he get to be known as a "lovable goofball" when I don't see any evidence of him being a lovable goofball?
Pam: He's an asshole in real life?
Joe: So, I'll give an example from this movie. Apparently, when the cast all got together, Bill Murray invited everyone out to dinner, except Anjelica Huston.
Pam: What?!
Joe: And she was like, "Why the fuck would he not invite me?" And he just said, "I didn't want you there. I don't really like you that much." For no fucking reason.
Frank: It's so petty.
Pam: I had no idea.
Joe: I read his Wikipedia page. There's very many paragraphs about "Controversies with Bill Murray," and just how everyone he works with—well, okay, I won't say everyone—but a lot of people he works with say, "Yeah, he was a big dick to me."
Courtney: He reminds me a lot of—my mom is one of ten kids, five boys and five girls, and—
Frank: Are you going to say Uncle [off-the-record]?
Courtney: No, I was going to say he reminds me of all my uncles. All of the uncles were raised to be like, "And women serve you" and "you're so much better than the girls." So there is a piece of all of my uncles within Bill Murray, where it's like... I don't really get why everyone likes my uncles so much? [laughter] I don't understand. I don't get it. They think that they're entitled to things. and I feel like Bill Murray thinks that way, like he feels entitled to getting all these laughs for doing nothing.
Joe: Here's a good example of the entitlement that you're talking about—and I agree with you—fucking hanging out with the Cubs, right after they won the World Series, hanging out right in their clubhouse, and partying with champagne.
Courtney: Why you?
Joe: Right! Who the fuck is he? He had nothing to do with their win.
Courtney: Exactly, but he's just like, "This is a thing I want to do, so I'm gonna do it, because no one has told me 'No' in my life, and I deserve everything."
Frank: Were you mad when Kevin Hart tried to get on the Super Bowl podium?
Joe: I... I was gonna say "That's different," but...
Frank: He was also blackout drunk so...
Courtney: I mean, wouldn't anybody who was close by try to?
Joe: Right, so how is that different? I was going to say that's different, but I can't think of how.
Courtney: Because we already don't like Bill Murray.
Joe: But is it different because I'm an Eagles fan?
Courtney: Yes.
Frank: But I also think Kevin Hart's actions were from genuine fan. Bill Murray—maybe he actually is a Cubs fan—but everything feels cultivated. I have never gotten the "everyone's just running into him" thing, because it feels very cultivated.
Courtney: He is a walking meme.
Frank: "I'm a Cubs fan. I am Chicago."
Courtney: You put him in any picture, and someone can create a meme.
Frank: But he also has a "need." Comedians are the most insecure people in the world.
Courtney: He's one of the one's who is insecure, and that comes off as him being an asshole.
Frank: What this movie does for me is that Bill Murray just acts like a human being. Be a human being, be normal, be "off." I think he's constantly "on." I think that's maybe part of what you find jarring, is that he's constantly "on," in life. You can't get a read on him in life.
Joe: I guess that's kind of plays into the theory about myself, when I try to think about why I don't like this dude. I feel like I have an aversion to what I'll call "star-fucking." I feel uncomfortable with people unquestioningly admiring famous people.
Courtney: Because that's the person who is the "it person" of the time?
Joe: Just in general.
Frank: It's also never going to work out for you.
Joe: It probably has a little bit to do with the "don't meet your heroes" that you were talking about earlier. But just in general, I think about the scene in Almost Famous, where what's-his-name was like, "These people are not your friends." Like... I didn't even fucking go near Mike Scott a couple weeks ago. I just feel uncomfortable doing that kind of shit. And I didn't get punched in the face by Mike Scott, so... [laughter] That's getting way off-track, though, if I were to say that I tried to be buddy-buddy with Mike Scott and then he punched somebody in the face... But, just, like, a general aversion to the idea of worshiping these people who don't deserve our worship.
[Editor's note: I talked briefly about Mike Scott and where he falls into all this during the interview with Maeve a few weeks ago. I've already cleared the air with her about this subject, and I'd like to clear it now in print—I don't have a problem with people being excited that a 76er came to a party that we were at. That's fucking great. I'm happy for everyone that was glad to meet him and take shots with him. All this shit about "star-fucking" and my general aversion to it is a personal problem. It's part of the tapestry of my own flaws, and I hate that I come off as a party-pooper when I talk about it. ANYWAYS, back to the interview.]
Frank: Star-fucking is so interesting, because, like, what a particular field movie- and TV-stardom is to be like, "Oh, these people must be wonderful."
Courtney: And they're not. They're just regular people.
Frank: And I don't think they feel like regular people. Other people don't treat them like regular people, and that can warp you.
Courtney: Bill Murray definitely leans into the fact that he's not a regular person.
Joe: You think he's warped?
Frank: I do. I kind of feel bad for the guy.
Courtney: He could be a better person.
Frank: Absolutely. Take sole responsibility—no one has caused him to be this way. But, it's gotta be lonely. It's gotta be lonely to be a guy who just shows up at random parties, and everyone goggles over you. That's gotta suck! Like I said earlier, he has kids who aren't close to him, who are kept afar, and he has real intimacy issues. And this is where his and Owen Wilson's character kind of...
Joe: Zissou did say, he did get offended when people were talking shit on him. "People say that when someone says something like that, it's because they're jealous. It still hurts. It hurts bad." Do you think Bill Murray is reading this conversation right now, curled up in a ball, saying, "They're probably just jealous, but it still hurts"?
Frank: ...Maybe. [laughter]
Joe: He's just showing up to some random blog, like an asshole?
Courtney: Through the lens of my uncles, who I see him as... they're just sensitive little boys. They have all these things that were just handed to them, and when something doesn't go their way, they have a total meltdown.
Frank: And it's also systematic of—and this is true for most people—if 90% of the things said about you are good, you're going to focus on the 10%. We're only talking about this because it's my favorite movie. You asked me my favorite movie, and I picked this. He's the star. And it's the one where you've said, "I don't like Bill Murray, but I really appreciate his performance." So if he really is reading this, and he's super-offended by it?
Joe: Then he'll be the Bill Murray we expect him to be.
Frank: I love that scene when he's like, "I read it, and that stuff happened. It was all true." And it's the fucking cover. I love that scene, it's like, "At first I was upset, but it all happened." Which is very similar to when Billy Crudup calls Rolling Stone at the end of Almost Famous.
Pam: I thought that too!
Frank: "I never called myself a 'golden god'... did I?" [laughter]
Joe: So, speaking of celebrities, let's talk about Bowie for a little bit.
Pam: Because all his music was featured?
Joe: Yeah. I feel like it's kind of—again, this is just my unwarranted opinion—I feel the same... I feel just as negative about David Bowie as I do about Bill Murray, but in a completely opposite way. I think he's overrated, but I have seen no evidence of David Bowie being a dick or anything like that. By all accounts, he was a really good dude, and I wish I liked his music more. It was really affecting in this movie though! It was really fucking cool.
Frank: In terms of fandom, and in terms of this movie being about that... it's so funny you talked about "star-fucking," because one of the themes of this movie is star-fucking, and the different expectations. How interesting that there is two Bowie songs, and then like ten songs of a fan covering Bowie in Portuguese. Seu Jorge really makes it what it is. I really like that album, the one with Seu Jorge doing the Bowie covers.
Joe: The Steve Zissou Sessions.
Frank: Yeah. It's great! I love it because it gives another level... and it's also a—I'm not going to remember the term, but when the music is within the movie?
Joe: Yeah, what the hell is that word?
Frank: Diegetic.
Joe: Yeah!
Frank: Because the movie is also about making a movie. There's a boom guy, a camera guy—
Joe: Didn't the actual sound guy portray the "sound guy" in the movie?
Frank: And the one guy—I forget what he does in the movie—and it's funny that Almost Famous keeps coming up here, because I love Almost Famous—but he's the guy who's their first manager, who gets fired, and he's the guy who cuts off Jamie's hand in Game of Thrones. He's like this respected actor who gets weird bit lines in this. That's another thing I love about this movie. The crew of the Belafonte is in this movie, and they're just... there.
Joe: Like when they were walking through the sauna, and the crew was like, "Oh, you're walking through the sauna now? Okay. Yeah."
Frank: That scene is so cool. They fucking built a set that you could walk through. They built a cross-section of a boat just so they could get that shot.
Joe: And how many movies stop dead and say, "Let me explain to you this set that we built"? I can't think of another one.
Frank: Because they're so proud of it! It's almost about movie-making, because they're like, "We're not just going to have this thing. We're proud of it, and we put a lot of money and work into it, so... Let me tell you about my boat."
Courtney: There's an artist—I don't know how I came upon this—there's an artist who did a painting of the Belafonte, and they made a YouTube video that was like, "Let me tell you about my painting." [laughter] And they walk you through every single thing about the painting. It's really cool! And you're like, "Wow, I didn't realize how much went into this." [Editor's note: Couldn't find this one.]
Joe: Is this an actual cult hit?
Frank: I feel like it's a cult movie. There are lines that make me laugh, but there are no actual one-liners.
Joe: No frat boy quotables.
Frank: Exactly. It's cult-y and weird. There's stuff that makes me laugh, every time. We can talk about that in a second, but I want to get back to Bowie. I love Bowie, and I love the Seu Jorge stuff, but it's interesting that you have the Bowie stuff through the different lens of Seu Jorge, and then you also have—I'm not a huge new wave guy, so I don't know a lot of Devo, but Mark Mothersburg did the score for this. So you're used to him through Devo, and now he's doing a movie score, that I think is so good.
Courtney: The music in this is so good. I didn't grow up with David Bowie or anything, so this was my first introduction to him? My brother had the Seu Jorge album, so that's how I knew any David Bowie songs. Just the Portuguese versions? [laughter] There's so many layers to this.
Frank: In terms of what moved me, I think it's such a good use of that Sigur Rós song, with the shark.
Pam: And when he was talking about the headphones too? Like, something important that they took out in post, and it was like, "we made that so we could listen to music." [laughter] It was perfect.
Frank: I love that Zombies song. It's the one that always moves me, it's at Owen Wilson's funeral, and they're playing [singing] "If I tried to say..." and then the casket goes out, and you just see that Anjelica Huston is crying in the observation bubble. I love it. It feels so human to me, because she really didn't meet him, but she was so moved by him.
Joe: True, man. Music was pretty fucking important in this.
Frank: It's important in all his films. I don't know if it's the only one, but I know it's the first one that didn't have any Rolling Stones songs.
Joe: He usually does Kinks too, right? He leans on them pretty hard.
Frank: For this one, it almost wasn't Bowie. I forget who they were originally going to use, but then it turned into Bowie. I think it works. [Editor's note: I couldn't find the answer to this one either. Does anyone reading this have the inside scoop?]
Courtney: I can't imagine it with anyone else. Who else would you do?
Joe: And I want to clear the record. Bowie's hits are fucking hits for a reason. He's got some great fucking songs. And like you were saying, about the end credits. There could've been no other song there. I feel like I said to Pam when we were watching it, ya know, "'Life on Mars?' is his best fucking song."
Frank: It's so powerful. The end credits—I remember, when Bowie died, this was the first thing I thought of, the end credits to this movie.
Courtney: I feel like this is what brought this movie back into pop culture again. When Bowie died, people were sharing that scene so much—
Joe: Ah! That's an interesting theory!
Courtney: —people were like, "Wait, what is this movie? Let me watch it." That's what brought about the resurgence of the movie.
Frank: Because Bowie dying also shifted—it's interesting that you're talking about him being overrated, maybe he was before—but I felt like the conversation of Bowie being "very good" shifted to "important" after he died.
Joe: That always happens when someone dies. An artist becomes a little more critically acclaimed than they would've been otherwise.
Courtney: People that liked him when they were younger, the people that grew up with him—like, the people I used to nanny for, the dad, he grew up with Bowie being his favorite. But it was the freaks and the weirdos liked Bowie, it wasn't the "mainstream" people, ya know what I mean? Then he becomes this thing that's for everyone. This is also coming from me, having not discovered any of his music until I was eighteen or nineteen, and I was like, "Okay, that makes sense."
Joe: I mean, I've done my due diligence in the past couple years, since his death. After he died, I was like, "Alright, maybe I should go through his discography." So I downloaded his self-titled debut album. It was shitty! It sucked! And then, like a year and a half later, it was like, "Maybe I should try something else." I downloaded "Heroes". The whole back half is fucking Brian Eno soundscapes. It's like, what the fuck? How...?
Pam: But for each album, there are a few hits.
Joe: Sure. I mean, the song "'Heroes'," the title track, is incredible.
Pam: But you're not going to listen to an album and say that every single song on that album is great.
Joe: In order to be described as a "genius," something that David Bowie in the past few years has been described as, you do need to have a few front-to-back classics.
Frank: Ziggy Stardust.
Joe: Ziggy Stardust is there. But, what else?
Frank: Maybe Hunky Dory. Maybe? But probably not. Aladdin Sane? Probably not.
Pam: Labyrinth?
[laughter]
Joe: If that's anyone's favorite movie, please come over to our backyard deck, because Pam is just salivating at the thought of talking about it.
Pam: I play that song all the time for Willow
[various people singing parts of "Dance Magic Dance"]
Joe: Do you think Steve Zissou could potentially be that type of movie for your child as he's growing up? I'll describe what I mean by "that type"—Pam grew up watching Labyrinth, and really loves that movie because she grew up watching it. I watched it as an adult, and said, "...This is real bad." [laughter] But, like... fuck the critics, you like certain things now because you liked them then. Do you think a child could grow up appreciating this movie?
Frank: Maybe. I don't know. Maybe! You know, it's funny, because I know you think that Star Wars was corny after you rewatched it recently. The first one.
Joe: Yeah.
Frank: You thought it was corny as shit.
Joe: But that might be different, because I remember appreciating Star Wars as a kid, and I didn't appreciate it as much when I was older. Like, I feel a better Joe K***-specific example would be Sum 41's debut album—
Frank: All Killer No Filler?
Joe: Yeah! Probably a shit album. But it's one of my favorite of all time. Because I grew up listening to it, right?
Frank: I think there are themes in this that are too adult. I don't know if I would've appreciated it as a kid, even if my parents had liked it.
Courtney: You don't think aesthetically? Or the music? Or... the hats?
Frank: No, because there's I think there's Fantastic Mr. Fox out there.
Courtney: Oh yeah, you are big on Fantastic Mr. Fox for kids. That's what Louie will watch.
Frank: I think it's really good, and I think it's accessible to kids.
Pam: Because it's claymation.
Courtney: I don't know, I loved live-action movies, as opposed to cartoons, as a kid.
Frank: But, I mean, I loved Ghostbusters as a kid, and that was probably a little over my head with adult themes. This is about death, and grief...
Pam: I feel like, as we've been interviewing people, there's so many movies that people had watched as kids. Like Brittany G***** watched Godfather II as a kid. She didn't pick up on everything. But certain things! Like, for this one, a kid would be like, "Wow, the fish are so cool!" And the costumes are great, the music's great.
Joe: That's a great point, thinking about what we watch as kids affecting us when we're adults. Curious as to whether Steve Zissou could be that movie for a kid. I don't know if it could.
Frank: I remember I loved, and I'll probably defend forever, Innerspace, with Martin Short and Dennis Quaid. Because I saw it as a kid, and I was like, "This is great!" I watched it again—
Courtney: He tried to make me watch it a couple years ago. I couldn't... ten minutes into it, I was like, "...What is this?"
Frank: I was like, "Oh... this might be bad." But I don't care. I still love it! It's weird. It's a weird movie. I don't know, maybe. I'll introduce this movie to him. I don't know if he'll love it. I wonder if there are other movies that would be more important... like Young Frankenstein. I didn't get it, but I feel like my mom was always showing me Young Frankenstein as a kid.
Pam: You probably got some things out of it. The things that stick out to kids.
Frank: Same with, ya know, Back to the Future. I'm sure Kev's been watching Back to the Future since he was little.
Joe: I guess it's just interesting to think about it, as a parent, whether you are purposefully affecting a child's perception of entertainment.
Courtney: But isn't that what parents do in general? They guide what you end up knowing about pop culture. I didn't know David Bowie, I didn't know the Beatles, I didn't know any of those things until I was in high school, and realized that everybody grew up with these things. I was like, "My parents just didn't care for that." I did not know those things. I knew Caddyshack.
Joe: But in that case, you were made familiar with Caddyshack, and you didn't like it. So it could go the other way. Negatively affecting a child's perception of your pop culture.
Courtney: My mom didn't care. She just thought it was funny. "If I have to watch something with you, this is what we're watching." [laughter]
Frank: I wonder if Steve Zissou is one that I would hope Louie would find on his own. I was thinking about this—I grew up with Springsteen's greatest hits, and my mom would always talk about how much she loved Bruce Springsteen, and I was a big Bruce Springsteen fan as a kid because I knew his greatest hits. But when I found Greetings from Asbury Park on my own, then it felt like, "this is mine." My own thing. Of course she had heard it before, but it was like, holy shit. I knew the Who songs, but the first time I heard Tommy, I was like, "Oh, okay." I got to experience this on my own. This is more mine than it would had it been given to me.
Joe: I guess you can probably, as a parent, push it too hard. I always think of the Onion article that's like, it's a dad saying, "My daughter appreciates fine art. Yeah, sure, all her friends are watching the new Jonas Brothers movie, but we sat down and watched Fellini's 33 1/3. She knows what good art is." You don't want to be that parent either.
Courtney: It's like, oh god, there's no way your child is choosing that over Jonas Brothers.
Pam: Kids like what they like. There are things that will draw kids in.
Courtney: Yeah, Frank, would it destroy you if Louie didn't like this movie? Like, when you went to show it to him—or he found it on his own—he was like, "Oh man, I like all Wes Anderson movies, but this by far is the worst."
Joe: "I agree with Rotten Tomatoes!"
Frank: ...That would be hurtful. [laughter] It would be like, "Just keep that to yourself."
Joe: "Ol' Phillistine F****** doesn't appreciate Steve Zissou!?"
Frank: "...You can just say you don't like it." [laughter] That's like me asking someone out on a date, and them saying, "No... and let me tell you why."
Joe: So I guess there's a chance that Blogspot is still going to exist, and Louie is going to be reading this a decade or two from now. So in case he hates the movie and he actually is reading this, I guess at this point we'll get into the defense—maybe not a defense, because I don't think you have to defend it against anybody, it's a great fucking movie—but let's talk about it your ultimate defense of this movie. To preface this, I'm definitely always interested in a straight-up, general opinion about why this is your favorite movie. But I'm probably more interested in, what does this mean about you? Our perception of you, since this was the movie you chose. Because I know there were other movies that you had up there, that you could've chosen. So we can start with the general about The Aquatic Life with Steve Zissou. If someone asked you, "Why do you like this movie?" what would you say? It'll probably be somewhat a summary of what we talked about so far...
Frank: I think one answer is going to bleed into the other. I was trying to think about what makes my favorite movie my "favorite movie." All the ones I came up with, I had known about prior to watching, and I thought they'd be one thing, but then they made me feel something completely different, and that stuck with me. I think that this movie made me laugh in a very particular way. It was unusual language pattern that made me laugh. I think visually, I had never seen a movie like this—what we already talked about, the Belafonte cross-section, the design, the hats, the way they used Europe. I felt like after I finished watching it—especially the second time, when I was a bit older, and I appreciated it more—the way they handled grief, the way they handled death, they were they handled Bill Murray, a guy like Bill Murray and his persona, and knocking the visage off a star, what does he have left at his core? And I like movies that are about making movies too, and I think this 100% qualifies. Not just literally them making their movie, but it's about the artistic process. I feel like Wes Anderson thinks of himself... who knows, he would probably like to think of himself as a genius, and when you'd like to think of yourself as a genius, how do you deal with that? How do you be a normal person?
Joe: This isn't me being sarcastic when I ask you this—do you feel that way about your own creative process? I prefaced it by saying I'm being serious with the question because I don't want to presume how you feel about what you do and whether you consider it "genius."
Frank: No, I don't think I'm a genius.
Joe: Not that no one thinks you're a genius! [laughter] But you get what I'm saying. Your own creative process. You're a creative person. Is that something you related to?
Frank: I think it's a weird balance with comedy. Especially with what I do with comedy, it's a weird balance of... it's weird to do something where you want to be silly, but you also want to be good. That's hard. It's hard to want to do something—to want to be the best at something—but then also believe that the thing that you're doing isn't of huge consequence to the world. That's a weird struggle with art. I think even calling what I do "art" makes me very uncomfortable.
[laughter]
Frank: It genuinely does.
Joe: I'll call bullshit on that. I'll call it art.
Frank: Alright... but... Joe, you also saw the process of getting there. You saw the growing pains of doing the stupid stuff—
Joe: The Presentation B.V.M. church hall improv show?
Frank: [laughter] Yeah.
Joe: I've been waiting to work that into this conversation.
Frank: The notorious church hall show.
Pam: Night at the Races, right? [Editor's note: Not really my story to tell, but let's just say it was the best improv show I've ever seen.]
Frank: I'll defend doing improv comedy to the death, but I'll say this—there is nothing on this planet worse than improv comedy in front of an audience that didn't know that improv comedy was going to happen. [laughter]
Pam: I feel like a lot of those people—I wasn't there—but a lot of those people are not familiar with what improv comedy even is.
Frank: It was on a stage, people were constantly talking, it was during dinner, we didn't have microphones. We had to just plow through.
Joe: Did you feel the same way that Wes Anderson might have felt after this movie didn't do well with critics? He put his vision out there, and no one appreciated it at the time.
Frank: I think it's hard. That's the danger.
Courtney: It's pushing boundaries and taking risks.
Frank: Yeah, but it's vulnerability... that's the trick. Beyond that show... I'm confident that I could do a good improv show, I'm not worried about that. Can I keep getting better? That's something to strive for. There's always a "better." Do I need fame to validate that? I don't think so. I don't know. Did Wes Anderson? I don't know. Maybe. I think Bill Murray definitely did. I think fame is part of Bill Murray's identity. Would Wes Anderson have been fine—it's tougher with movies, because you need a budget—but would he have been fine if no one ever knew him? Maybe. Maybe not. When I teach my students, right before their improv shows, I'm like, "I love this more than anything else in the world. I think about this all the time. I teach this, I do this. This was something that was once a hobby"—and it's still a hobby—but it's something "that was once a college hobby that has been in my life for a decade now. It's stayed consistently in my life for a decade. So believe me when I tell you—the stakes couldn't possibly be lower with what we're about to do." It's still humor. We're talking earlier about truth-telling; I don't think humor is "important," but I think it's important, if that makes sense. I dunno... that's not going to translate well in print.
[laughter]
Frank: I think it serves a purpose. I really value comedy, and it's a huge part of my life. But I don't think it's world-changing. I don't think it's... I dunno, you called bullshit about it not being art. Why do you think its art?
Joe: I'll always say that art makes me feel something. Whether it's me going to an improv show and laughing, or me going to an improv show thinking, "why the fuck am I here?" It's making me feel something. I've never gone to an improv and said "I feel nothing." That's a pretty basic opinion about what art is supposed to do, but...
Frank: I think the stakes are a lot higher for Wes Anderson, I will say that. And that's a personal choice I make that I struggle with. With improv, I'm able to be like, "Well, I just made that up on the spot, so I'm able to walk away from it." For him, I can't imagine, for something that came from his brain, he meticulously drew out enough that he was able to build a set, that ship. It was in his head, and he made it happen.
Courtney: He employed hundreds of people create this vision for him.
Frank: Something that's so specifically him saying, "This is something I want to say." That level of vulnerability... You can tell, one way or the other. Like, I gave—not to cross over on your blog—but the Ashley Simpson album. Even though those songs were autobiographical, that was one of my big things—I didn't feel like she was being vulnerable. I didn't feel like she cared.
Joe: It was a marketing ploy.
Frank: Yeah. And so there were probably people who felt this was just a job, but there are people who give a part of themselves to this thing, or have a part of themselves taken.
Courtney: But I would argue that comedy is that too. Like, when you write a sketch, you put on a show. When you're doing an improv show, you are being vulnerable and putting yourself out there, in that moment. Yeah, it's on a very small scale, but it's in front of people you have to interact with afterwards! Ya know? And these people don't forget what you just did on stage. Just because it's not the grander masses... this is you.
Frank: I do feel that way. And we talk all the time, like, I'm so mad that I got all my friends and family to come see my improv shows in my first year of improv. Because now it's like, "please please please please..." [laughter] "I swear to god it's good now!" And they're like, "Yeah, that's okay."
Courtney: "I swear I won't make you feel anxious when I come on stage."
Frank: But there are also happy accidents. It's his vision. One of the things I think is funniest about this movie is Willem Defoe. I think Willem Defoe is so funny. So weird. And the happy accident is that Klaus was written to be a younger person. And then they cast Willem Defoe. So that's why is so weird, it's meant to be a brotherly rivalry, which stays in the movie, but which feels insane because he's so much older than Owen Wilson. [laughter]
Joe: Right! And Zissou was like, "I always felt like you are our son." And it's Willem Defoe.
Pam: He was so perfect for that part.
Frank: [Klaus impression] "Thank you for putting me on the flag." He's so weird! This movie takes a bunch of a weird character actors, and lets them be super weird. That's what always makes me laugh. Like, Jeff Goldblum was like—and, ya know, not condoning violence against or anything—but when he's like, "Be still Cody!" and hits him. [laughter] Bud Cort, who's super weird, and just a weird looking guy, who plays the Bond Stooge—
Joe: I didn't know that he was Harold, from Harold and Maude.
Frank: "Is that my espresso machine?" "We fucking stole it, man."
Joe: It's fucking great. Okay, let's take like fifteen steps back. You brought up a couple times the idea of grief in this movie. I'm interested in a personal level. Why was that a thing that affected you as an adult and not as a kid?
Frank: Interesting.
Joe: Is that because of a grief that you felt personally in your life? Or is that a general growing older thing?
Frank: I think it's a mix. It's interesting—when this movie came out would've been around the time when [off the record]'s dad died. I think a lot about—not that I'm not a vulnerable person—but I think that dealing with grief or with sadness—and I'm not overly machismo by any measure—but I think it's hard for me to express grief, and deal with it. I do remember that striking moment of, when [he] died, being like, "I don't know how to handle this. I don't know how to handle this situation. This is crazy." And I feel like, [my friend] and I grew apart because of that. I don't think either of us knew... I never felt like I was there for him in the way that I could've been, or should've been. I don't think he knew what he needed either. I think about that all the time, about how that death influences how I view death, later on. Other people have died since... like, it's different with a grandparent. But I don't think I've had a close friend die...
Joe: And look, man. It's easy to be hard on yourself with that kind of stuff. But you were also a lot younger.
Courtney: You would've been around fifteen.
Frank: I was fifteen. My sister was born the day of his funeral. Which is wild. I just think this movie nails that emotions are complicated. Like, how do you deal when things are complicated. I feel like there's another staple of a lot of Wes Anderson's movies that's related. There's a thing that happens in all his movies. It's like a sudden burst of violence? I feel like Owen Wilson's death is very interesting thing. It doesn't come out of nowhere, since it's kind of foreshadowed with "the helicopter is bad," but it feels like a surprise death. I feel like he always has a surprise death that all the characters have to deal with that isn't necessarily plot-driven. It's more like, "How are these people going to react to it?"
Joe: It was definitely a whole "This is such a nice moment" thing, like, in a typical movie it would've been a successful trip, they find the shark, and they kill it. This was like, "No, the helicopter's fucked." And it just dives into the ocean.
Pam: It was definitely sad, but it also still felt cartoon-y? Just because the style's so quirky. If it was a different movie, it would be much more serious, and you would be more upset about it.
Frank: And I know we've been getting so serious, but there's something about the melodrama about death in movies that sometimes affects how... death is weird. It's so weird. Only because our brains are trained to respond to death like it's such a profound thing. But people die, and other people go on. And other people's stories go on. I don't know, now I'm just rambling.
Courtney: I know what you mean though. Someone's here, and then they're not anymore.
Frank: But not just that. I think it also nails "empathy vs. sympathy." I think it's really interesting of "I believe these people are humans, and it's striking something human in me, and I'm dealing with it." But it's not... him going through his grief, and why it resonates with you—it's unlocking something in our own thoughts, about our own lives. Versus "empathy," which would be like, "I'm invested in this character. I'm so sad Owen Wilson died." Instead of being like, "Oh, it's sad. I feel bad for Bill Murray." Sympathy versus empathy. I think a lot of movies will trick us into being empathetic toward certain characters. Think about how much people freaked out when characters from Game of Thrones died, like they were people they knew. As if the actors aren't still alive.
Joe: So Wes Anderson is able to capture this, is what you're saying.
Frank: I think so. He's able to capture closeness and distance, and thinking from my own perspective, versus making a connection with these people. Which I think goes back to the play thing, right? All these people are held at a distance. Like, Royal Tenenbaums has a narrator and seems like it's from a book. Grand Budapest is shown to be in a pop-up book. Everything is always like we're watching people act.
Courtney: There's a fourth wall.
Joe: Kind of like how they are making a movie themselves. Like, is this all happening for the sake of good television?
Frank: Which he even says, right? "It's a documentary! It all happened!" Or how about, "Why did you stop filming? We caught a really tender moment there." So, okay, I don't want to turn the mirror back, but you've been pretty astute in other interviews about what the movie has made you see in other people. Is there anything about this movie that made you say, "Okay, that makes sense why Frank picked this"?
Joe: I mean, just from knowing you for so long, I thought it was a lot of what we talked about, with the humor in the details. Like, this particular type of humor is just something that I knew you appreciate. Somebody that wasn't as learned in the art of comedy might not appreciate it as much. And I'll include myself in that. But I could see your style of making people laugh in this movie. And... that seems pretty superficial, but... that would've been my guess when I was watching it. But to hear that it's a little more than that, that it's not just a funny movie, that it's also about a dark subject, it's good to hear that, at least for the purposes of such an interview.
Frank: I think it highlights on grief. And I think back to how they dealt with... I think we got a unique perspective about what it means to be a man at La Salle [College High School]. They pushed, being at an all-boy school, that these are the values you should have, this is what...
Joe: I'm glad we could work the La Salle motto into these interviews. "Boys will be boys, but La Salle boys will be gentlemen." [laughter]
Frank: But maybe that's me being too gendered. Probably. It probably is me being too gendered. I think just being a human is complicated.
Joe: Absolutely.
Frank: Women have just as much a hard time of being vulnerable as men do. I'm not suggesting you [Courtney] don't. In fact, I would say you have a harder time being vulnerable than I do.
Courtney: Yeah, for sure.
Frank: So I think it's the grief, but I think this movie just made me feel very human. I think that's what upsets me so much about treating it like its glib. Because I don't think they're being "glib." I think the movie treats it like they're people. It's a nice snapshot of—essentially, he meets this person, he goes with Owen Wilson, he really wants this person to be his son, and as it turns out, there isn't even a chance that this person could be his son. And it doesn't matter, because it's about this brief time when someone believes in you wholeheartedly.
Joe: Right.
Frank: It's funny, having a son on the way—it's interesting to see it through that lens too. There's going to be a person who sees you through an entirely different light. And maybe you have this with your dad too, of like, growing up, you see this person an entirely differently light. And then you grow older, now we're adults, and they're still our dads, but they're not these "overheads" anymore. They're our peers. We have the same experiences. We're going through the same shit that they did. I'm older now than my dad was when they had me, and that seems inconceivable in my head. Because he was always my dad.
Joe: I'm just thinking about, how you were saying that it's tough to be vulnerable sometimes. I feel like I very rarely get vulnerable with my dad. I feel like the few times I have gotten vulnerable with him, we're both really drunk. And you kind of see that in Bill Murray as an actor and as a character in this movie, in that he has his guard up most of the time. But it peeks through, occasionally.
Frank: The heartbreaking moment when they're underwater—that's what kills me, is that they do this underwater—"Do you mind if I call you 'Dad' in this shot." "...Why?" And Owen Wilson goes, "Oh. Oh, excuse me, sorry." [laughter] He gets so defeated. "Why don't you call me... 'Stevie'?" It's so heartbreaking. And I think it's tough.
Joe: It's interesting thing to think about, and I should've asked you earlier in the interview. Do you see any of that relationship in your relationship with your dad?
Frank: Yeah. Obviously not beat-for-beat or anything. My dad and I, we... [laughter] It's funny because, I'm going to talk about this, but you can cut it out, if you deem that appropriate. I want to talk about on Kairos. On Kairos, I got very upset, because everyone was getting very upset, because everyone was getting these letters from their dads, and were like bursting into tears. And I got a letter from my dad that was like, "Hope you're having a good time." [laughter]
Joe: Like, maybe you could tell that your mom wrote it, and just signed your dad's name. That's kind of how I felt. [laughter]
Frank: And it felt like I got gypped! Yeah, I feel like I have a hard time being vulnerable with my dad. I think it's tough for fathers and sons—I mean, it's not like our dads were "rough and tumble dads," or "absentee fathers" either—but even then, it's still hard to be vulnerable, to break that barrier, in a way that's a lot easier with your mom. I think I rewatched this after my dad had his heart attack too. I think that changed it. My dad having his heart attack really made me reevaluate what I wanted my vulnerability with him to be. Because it was a pretty serious heart attack. It made me reevaluate, in the very clichéd way, ya know, "What do you want left on the table?"
Joe: One can probably find some lessons in Bill Murray's actions and Owen Wilson's actions in this movie, as far as how they dealt with all this poorly most of the time. The moments that they felt most human to us as the audience was when they let their guard down.
Frank: Even the way they show the letters in reverse. I love the fact that you see Bill Murray's response first—
Joe: "To answer your question: Yes."
Frank: Which is a perfect way to build that. But also in the way he gets emotional about it. It's the first time you see a crack in his facade. I think it's a weird thing too, and I think it might explain Bill Murray's weird relationship with kids, versus adults—I know I get self-conscious, and I think it's a struggle to think about, "Am I who my dad wanted me to be?" And I think that's something that's a struggle. And who knows if you are? Maybe. Maybe not. "Is my dad who I would want him to be?" Those are constant, weird struggles. Not that that pressure was ever put on me.
Pam: It's pressure you put on yourself. As people who have parents, and are parents, and will be parents...
Joe: It's a good way to put into words that general self-doubt that we all have: "Am I who I'm supposed to be?" An easy way to do that is, "Am I who my dad wanted me to be?"
Courtney: It's a real good way to guilt-trip yourself. "I'm not fulfilling all of the hopes and dreams that my parents had for me, and they put so much time and energy into me, and look at me now." But would you ever want Willow to feel that way?
Joe: No. But she will, because that's just natural.
Courtney: And we never want Louie to feel that way. It's an inevitable part of life, too. How do you not feed into that self-doubt?
Frank: But I think you're spot-on, too, Joe. Isn't it easier, instead of coming to grips with "Who do I want to be?", isn't it easier to project that onto someone else, and put the responsibility on them? And then I can rise or fall based on that. Being in charge of my own happiness.
Courtney: We talk about it a lot, even within our own relationship. I'm not in charge of your happiness, I don't control your happiness, and you don't control mine. We can be—
Frank: Supportive.
Courtney: —we can be on separate planes, and be like, "I'm feeling good," or "I'm not feeling good," and it doesn't need to feed into the partner, like, "I need you to feel this way, so that I can feel good."
Frank: That's why I wish Cate Blanchett's character was a little more fleshed out. That's what her character arc could have been. That's what it kind of is, her realizing that she can do this on her own. But I do, I think...
Joe: I mean, I don't know if all this is something that we're making up as we go, in terms of reasons why we like this movie, talking about our dads! Because I didn't have any notes about any of that.
Courtney: No, but there's so many layers to this. I feel like that is the telling of a movie that you truly love. Going back to why people love this movie, or why people choose the movie they love. When there are so many layers, and you start talking about it, about all the ways you relate to it, that's what makes it the movie that you love so much. You'll always find something new to talk about, and something new to discover.
Frank: Yeah, I might even like Fantastic Mr. Fox better.
Joe: After all this?! Goddamn it! [laughter]
Frank: No, sincerely though, I might like it better. But... I really struggled with what makes my favorite movie. I think the superficial stuff is always there, but I think that maybe I couldn't always verbalize what else—maybe we're making it up now, I don't know. But something struck me really deeply about this movie. Something deeply resonated with me. I don't know if I ever thought critically about it before. For whatever reason, this movie hit me in a way that was like, "Oh, this is important." God, my worse fear was that I just saw it was the lowest-rated on Rotten Tomatoes and I was like, "Ah, fuck you, this is my favorite." [laughter]
Courtney: I mean, that's very you.
Joe: Nothing wrong with liking the underdog.
Frank: But I do think, with some of the other ones I would've picked...
Joe: Yeah, what are some other ones?
Frank: Casablanca. Lawrence of Arabia.
Courtney: You should be so grateful that you didn't have to watch Lawrence of Arabia. It's so long.
Frank: But so good though.
Pam: I honestly thought you were going to pick Ghostbusters.
Frank: Ghostbusters might be on my list, yeah. I did love Ghostbusters as a kid.
Joe: There's only so many times I can talk about, ya know, "This was just a fun romp that I enjoyed." Ghostbusters probably would've fell into that category.
Frank: The movies that I'm bringing up are... you know how some movies are critically acclaimed, and then they are boring? I would've assumed, going into Lawrence of Arabia, that it was boring as hell. It isn't. It moves. Casablanca is another great example that everyone talks about, so you're like, "No way it can be that good." I think I felt that way about It's a Wonderful Life. It's a Wonderful Life is so corny, and so good. Absolutely. That's one... god... not this one, but if Louie is like, "Nah, I'm out on It's a Wonderful Life," I'll be like, "Get out!" Right?
Joe: He wouldn't be living up to his father's expectations! [laughter]
Frank: Oh my god! Oh Jesus!
Pam: Don't put that pressure on him!
Courtney: Louie, if you're reading this, we love you.
Frank: Louie, I dunno... you say that you're my son, but... I just don't see it.
[laughter]
Frank: But yeah, I think movies that stay with you make you go, "Woah." Really, they stay with you in a way. I feel like I picked this one too, because it was one that I really wanted to get my teeth into? And ya know, nothing wrong with "fun romps" either, but it's one that I wanted to... I was hoping you would like it. I felt like it would be a movie that you would like and appreciate. But had you not, I was like, "Okay, I want to know that I can defend this." It's important to me.
No comments:
Post a Comment