Here we are with another installment of Your Favorite Movie, where we sit down with a dear friend and hash out their feelings about a movie of their choosing, at 2 AM, drenched in flop sweat, yelling and screaming at each other, drunkenly crashing cars, etc.
This week, I sat down with Catherine Z*** to talk about her favorite movie. Her BFF Sean G******* joined us. Luckily, my friendship with these two is a lot more cordial than the characters in the movie, and it was a blast catching up with them at El Bar in Fishtown. We don't get to hang out as often, ever since these two jabronis followed the Jay-Z's siren song to the Big Apple, a city of full of dashed hopes and good intentions.
Welcome back to Philly, let's talk about marital discord. Catherine's favorite movie is Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, which was originally a play, but adapted in 1966 to the big screen. It's an uncomfortable and challenging watch, which made it really fun to talk about and use as a mirror to examine our own insecurities.
Our conversation is transcribed below, with Catherine's permission, and with plenty of editing, because caterpillars kept landing on my shoulders, and I kept yelling "FUCK" as loud as I could, and none of that ended up in the transcription (for better or worse). I think this conversation is the perfect balance of morbid self-reflection and Lasallian inside jokes. Enjoy!
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Catherine: Yeah, I'd prefer making it personal, if you don't mind.
Joe: My idea was to go into this movie and compare and contrast my own relationship to George and Martha's relationship. After a while... I gave up.
Catherine: [laughter] Really?
Joe: Well, I mean... they get really intense.
Catherine: Yeah, holy shit. It was more intense than I remembered. But then I think... they've been married for a very long time, I assume. Decades?
Joe: Yeah. Well, I mean, if their pretend child was sixteen, then it'd be at least twenty years. You're not going to come up with the idea of a pretend child on your first date. [laughter]
Catherine: It probably takes a while to get to that point.
Joe: So, do you see yourself in Martha at all?
Catherine: Very much.
Joe: Yeah?
Catherine: I think that was the first thing that struck me about this movie.
Sean: [laughter]
Catherine: What are you laughing at? First of all, the themes of this movie are very personal to me. Two of my favorite things—relationships and alcoholism. The way that she... I feel like Martha represents the worst part of myself. It's not as bad, obviously, but... I've been there. After a night of drinking, and projecting your own flaws onto somebody else, dressing somebody down. Because you hate yourself a little bit, ya know?
Joe: The actors definitely did a great job portraying that two AM feeling of, "we're too drunk."
Sean: And then at the same time, the night doesn't want to end. You don't want to end it.
Catherine: Yes! That's one of my favorite representations of being an alcoholic that I've seen. When you're in that zone, like, "The party's not going to end. I refuse to let it end." The movie starts at two in the morning. Crazy. It goes all night.
Joe: Is that what people did on college campuses in the '60s? Or whenever it was written, the '50s I guess? Was it normal to go to somebody's house at two in the morning, someone that you just met?
Sean: I don't know what it says about the young couple either. That they're willing to do that?
Catherine: I think that they're such world class drinkers that they were going to have a nightcap anyway, and Martha's flirty and horny, and so she invited him over. Maybe it's different because they do live on a college campus, that the party keeps going?
Sean: The young man, is he a teacher as well?
Catherine: Yeah, he's a professor.
Joe: That's one of the bits. Which we'll go back to. Okay, so you see yourself in Martha. She is... pretty funny!
Catherine: She's hilarious.
Joe: To an audience member, she's funny. I don't know particularly to the characters in the movie if she's funny.
Catherine: I mean, she's a miserable... cunt, if I may. [laughter] But in the best way. She's so fun to watch. And I think George loves that about her too, as much as he hates her. I think he enjoys that part of her.
Joe: I was going to say. They're playing what they call "games," I guess. Do they mutually enjoy doing this?
Catherine: I think so.
Joe: That was a big thing—what's truth, and what's illusion? We can kind of go into that. But... when they got real down and dirty, like, "I'm going to fucking kill you," basically... was that part of the "game"?
Catherine: I think that she's used to being the bully with all the power, and that's how the game always goes. She can say whatever she wants to George, and he'll take it for the most part, and roll his eyes at her. I don't think she expected him to come back at her the way he eventually does.
Joe: Okay, that's interesting. So this is out-of-character for George?
Catherine: It seems to be, yeah.
Joe: Wow, I didn't think of it that way!
Catherine: There's a real power shift at the end, where she becomes the weaker one.
Sean: He's definitely aware of like, "This is how it goes, Martha says this..."
Catherine: I've always seen George described as "emasculated" or "weak," but I never saw him that way. He knows how to deal with her, and he just doesn't think it's worth it to challenge her anymore. I don't see that as "weak," I see it as learning how to play her game.
Sean: He's the more sane of the two.
Catherine: For sure. But he definitely fucked up too.
Joe: His actions definitely escalated throughout the movie. In the beginning, he was being "sulky," in Martha's own words. That's probably where I stopped the comparing that I had been doing between them and me and Pam. I can definitely be sulky in those types of situations. Like, if I don't want to do something, Pam would definitely act that way, like, "Oh, what are you sulky?!" joking around and shit. But that's probably where the comparison ends. So Pam, if you're reading this...
[laughter]
Sean: That's the first fifteen minutes of the movie.
Joe: Exactly!
Catherine: And then it gets completely out of hand.
Joe: I've never choked Pam in an empty speakeasy. So, do you feel like you're like Martha in any other ways besides the humorous imbibing of it all?
Catherine: Yeah. The way that she likes to dress people down, because, I think, she's insecure about herself. So she likes to put all the focus on other people's flaws. Especially the people she loves the most, which is very fucked up. She'll start talking about how he's weak, and how he never became the person she expected him—and her father expected him—to become. That he had all this potential, and he fizzled out.
Joe: So you personally get that harsh with people?
Sean: Uhh....
[laughter]
Joe: With Sean?
Sean: I mean, I don't know if you do it for self-esteem reasons.
Catherine: I don't know why I do it. But don't you think there have been—
Sean: You find the fun in it, for sure. It's like a game for you, sometimes.
Catherine: I have found myself—especially with you, because I know you better than anybody—saying some really fucked up things to you.
Sean: But it's never anything like, "I have to reevaluate my friendship with Catherine..."
Joe: Because you know the game.
Sean: I've choked you in a speakeasy.
[laughter]
Catherine: But I don't know what it is, there's a sinister part of it, that's like—I never expected to be admitting this, but—that's like, you want to make someone feel bad about their incompetence. Ya know?
Joe: No, that's fair.
Catherine: Especially when you're drunk. I don't know if there's a truth to the whole "a drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts" or whatever. I don't think that's completely true. I think you can experience a personality shift when you're really drunk, when dark things come out of you, things you don't normally think.
Joe: I was kind of leaning toward, not the "truth in alcohol" aspect, but the "truth in humor" aspect to it. Like you were saying earlier, that you were writing barbs for a roast. Is humor designed to cut people down, typically?
Catherine: I think it can. It can be a mask to being outright cruel. Like, "It's just a silly joke!" There's this exhibition part to it too. Martha invited an audience, and she gets to dress George down in front of people. She really enjoys that. I think that's what the whole "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?" thing. It was a joke she told at the party? And she's like, "Remember that joke I told?"
Joe: Yeah, it's like the punchline, and we never get the joke behind it.
Catherine: And Honey says, "Yeah, that was funny," and Martha just keeps bringing it up. She loves the attention.
Joe: She's uses the humor. And I guess George used the joke to make Honey throw up, as a distraction, I guess?
Catherine: Man, when they go off... that's when it takes a turn. Well, obviously... she's going to fuck Nick.
Joe: Which we'll get to. But, I thought that the gun part was like... okay, maybe these characters are willing to cross a line.
Catherine: Isn't it insane? I don't know if this is a sign of the times, or what. But everyone in that moment really thought that he was about to shoot her, right? And they're terrified! And then they just laugh it off! Like, "Well, that happened. Anyway..." They should have left that gathering at most fifteen minutes after they arrived. They would've been like, "Oh, these people are hammered, they hate each other, we're also too drunk. We need to go now."
Joe: I guess it did stretch realism a little bit.
Catherine: Or! There's a weird power dynamic. Because he's a new professor, new in town. She's the daughter of the president, or dean or whoever. And he wants to get in good with her. And they don't want to be rude. And they stay... for way too long.
Joe: And Nick admitted to wanting to sleep his way up the ladder. Did they fuck at the end?
Catherine: Mhm. They tried. He couldn't get it up.
Joe: But they were willing, and possibly not able, I guess. He was the "houseboy" and not the "stud"? [laughter]
Catherine: That was also an amazing part that I love. It's like, George and Martha are sparring all night, but when she goes off to fuck Nick, and it doesn't work, and they all come back together. George finds out that Nick couldn't get it up, and then George and Martha team up to fuck with him! George finds it hilarious that he can dress Nick down a little bit. It's great! It's so weird.
Joe: Where does George stand in all this? I guess he expects Martha to fuck other dudes?
Catherine: Oh yeah. He's not surprised at all.
Joe: But he's not down with it at all, right? It's not a "hotwife" situation.
Catherine: No.
Joe: But on the other hand, they almost played it off like one of their "games" again.
Catherine: I do think he's come to expect this kind of insane behavior from her. I know I said that I didn't find him to be "emasculated," but I guess in that moment, he's like, "Well... I guess this is what she does." And he's definitely not happy with it. He's furious with her. And I do think that's what eventually spurs him to "kill" their fake kid. That's his retaliation.
Joe: From our vantage point, it's definitely a messed up relationship.
Catherine: But... don't you see the love there? The love and hate, "two sides of the same coin"?
Joe and Sean: ...
Catherine: No? Neither of you?!
Joe: I dunno...
Catherine: I thought if you could hate somebody that much, you have to love them that much.
Sean: Like, they'll only function with each other. They wouldn't function with other people.
Catherine: Remember her monologue, about how he's the only man who ever made her happy, and she hates him for it?
Sean: I think a long time ago...
Catherine: No, currently! And that he will keep up with her games as quickly as she can change them?
Joe: I guess. I mean...
Catherine: She appreciates him, at least.
Sean: I don't know if there's real love there.
Catherine: Not at all?! I definitely do.
Sean: I think there's a foundation of a relationship. Maybe they were like those other two before they got to where they are.
Catherine: I think Martha's always been that way. At the beginning, she says something like, "I don't know what you expected, this is why you married me." I think he used to like that part of her personality, and that charm fades pretty quickly.
Joe: I think maybe I just stop short of saying "This is true love," because of how dysfunctional it is. And, like, to each their own, and if they found "the one" in each other...
Sean: It's not healthy.
Joe: Right. It's not something I can personally imagine. One of my notes was "What are they still doing together?" It's something that I wondered before this conversation. This answers the question I guess.
Catherine: It's completely dysfunctional, but they do love each other, a lot.
Sean: I'm curious, we see one late night with them. What are they like during the day? This could just be one night gone too far.
Catherine: It's possible. But they're really getting a lot out of their systems in one night, if this isn't how they normally act.
Sean: It could be the night when all hell breaks loose.
Joe: What's the How I Met Your Mother thing? "Nothing good ever happens after 1 AM"?
Catherine: There's something so interesting about starting the movie at the end of the night, at 2 AM. Everyone should be in bed when the movie begins.
Joe: I don't know if I personally would have the energy to fight with anyone, wife or otherwise, until sun-up. Like, eventually, I would just be like, "...I'm going to bed." [laughter]
Sean: Talk about going to bed angry.
Catherine: The addiction to the "game" is really interesting, because I feel like he enjoyed it as much as she did.
Sean: He gets off on it, in some way.
Joe: So how much do you think of what they were doing was "truth," as opposed to "illusion." They made it pretty unclear. And at one point, George—was it George or Martha?—said to Nick, "How do you know that I was telling the truth?"
Catherine: So much of it is up to interpretation. George's backstory is like... did he murder his parents? We don't know!
Joe: Was the best night of his life really the night he mispronounced "bourbon"? [laughter]
Catherine: You just have to speculate. Because if that's true, then it's a whole other thing to unpack. Maybe he hates himself, and he likes to be beat up a little bit. Because he's... a murderer? [laughter] Because he has some guilt over killing his family?
Sean: It's just really great, complex characters, even sixty years later.
Joe: Absolutely, and it makes it a great movie. A great movie doesn't have to answer all those questions. It can leave some stuff in the air.
Catherine: It's hard to say what's "real." The only thing you can say is real is their contention and bitterness between them. The words don't really mean anything, but the sentiment behind them is palpable. There is... okay, maybe I won't go as far as to say "there's a lot of love there," but maybe it's not exactly hate. I don't know.
Joe: Are there any lessons to be derived from this movie?
Sean: Don't drink. [laughter]
Joe: I think all three of us can agree that's not the lesson were taking from this. "Barkeep, eight more Hamm's, please."
Catherine: When I saw it... I've always been terrified of marriage, and I don't know why, because my parents had a really a good relationship. But, it's always been a such a scary thing.
Sean: It's such a gamble.
Catherine: It's an intense commitment that, like, "we're gonna be the same people we've always been!" If you harbor any sort of resentments, or if your life doesn't turn out the way you wanted it to, you can take it out on the other person?
Joe: There's definitely more pressure once you tie the knot. A potential break would be a lot more painful, ya know what I mean?
Catherine: Yeah. And a huge thing for George and Martha is not being able to have kids. I think their lives would be totally different. She especially feels completely ineffectual, and that's why she has to beat him up all the time.
Sean: Do you think she blames him for not being able to have kids?
Catherine: I think she's the one who can't have children.
Joe: They never stated it outright?
Sean: I don't think so.
Catherine: If it were him, then we would know.
Joe: Because she would've said it. Sure.
Catherine: She would love humiliating him about that.
Joe: That's a good point.
Catherine: I think she hates herself a lot, because she's never accomplished anything. Probably really wanted to be a mother, and so she projects all her insecurities onto George.
Joe: It's where the sarcasm and the jokes are coming from.
Sean: Self-loathing.
Joe: I guess they are perfect for each other.
Catherine: No one else in the world could handle either one of them.
Joe: Even as an audience member, I could barely handle them.
Catherine: But then their relationships casts a light on the flaws in the other relationship. That couple is fucked. Forever. [laughter]
Sean: I haven't seen it in a while. Does the younger couple have any kind of chemistry or connection?
Joe: Eh, not really. And Nick admits early on that he did it for the money, and because she thought she was pregnant. A very '60s term—"hysterical pregnancy." [laughter]
Catherine: Yeah, what is that?
Sean: So she didn't have a child. Did they say it was a miscarriage? Or what?
Joe: So there's a couple layers to this, actually. Nick says first that she either made it up, or thought that she was pregnant, but actually wasn't? But then Honey later on states that she actually was pregnant at the time. And then the other layer that I found interesting was that the actress herself had a miscarriage on set.
Catherine: What? Holy shit. She's fantastic. I think that she's—I mean, I love every single character—but she's the most interesting. I don't know what her deal is!
Joe: I feel like when she was first introduced, the first couple scenes, I was like, "Ahh, she's not that good of an actress." But then by the end, it was like, "Oh damn, she's doing great."
Catherine: Yeah, she's great! That's her character, the weirdo.
Joe: I don't know if it was just because the character got drunk, and the actress could play that better?
Catherine: When's screaming "Violence!" Also, do you remember when she's crying and she admits that she never wanted to have kids? But then, George and Martha are talking about their "son." And she's the most hammered one. They were talking about their son for a while, and Honey's like, "...I wanna have a baby."
Joe: Right, because she didn't originally, and then she changed her mind?
Catherine: Or she's just drunk, like, "That sounds nice."
Joe: Spending a lot of time on the bathroom floor. Or, saw that her husband fucked Martha?
Catherine: Oh yeah, when they're dancing at that roadside bar, and they're watching Nick and Martha dance, Martha says something like, "I like the way your body feels on mine."
Joe: They're like humping each other, basically.
Catherine: And Honey's like, [drunk Honey impression] "Oh, she likes the way his body feels." [laughter] And George keeps calling her "Angel Tits"! And "Monkey Nipples"! [laughter]
Sean: The more I think about it, one of my favorite takeaways is that they introduce this young couple, nothing like George and Martha, and I think it shows how quickly and easily they can change. Whether it's the influence of the crazy people who've been married for 25 years, or just being human in general. That's how they are, you can change like that. [snaps]
Joe: You're saying we all have that bubbling below the surface.
Sean: I think so.
Joe: We could all become George or Martha.
Sean: And it only took a couple hours! And then he's upstairs with Martha. It's crazy.
Catherine: Nick was a really interesting character. He's sort of the voice of reason for a while. And then he's just as fucked up as everyone else.
Sean: Alcohol plays a part, but...
Joe: I didn't know this, just because I'm not big on movies—but I didn't know that Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton were married in real life.
Catherine: That makes the movie perfect, that they really had that kind of relationship. They're both alcoholics who have a very tumultuous relationship. There's this quote from Richard Burton—you know how Elizabeth Taylor was, for a while, known as "the most beautiful woman in the world"? He goes, "Yeah... I never understood that. She's pretty, but..."
Joe: Wow. Was this after they got divorced?
Catherine: No! I think it was... I think they divorced and remarried multiple times—
Joe: He was two out of her eight husbands, right?
Catherine: Yeah. And so he was like, because they were so close, he probably knew her better than anyone else in the world. He knew her ugly side. So he was like, "I never understood 'most beautiful woman in the world.' Pretty, but beautiful? Absolutely not."
Joe: Okay, well then that makes sense that they got divorced twice.
Catherine: But I'm pretty sure the lore is that they were each the love of each other's lives.
Joe: I mean, Wikipedia literally called it "turbulent," their relationship. Wikipedia. You need facts to back claims up there! [laughter] I also read that they had had a hard time letting go of their characters from this movie. I guess it was like the opposite of method acting? Like, they eventually became these characters. They were fighting like that, after the movie production was over.
Catherine: Because they tapped into something very real. I think that's [original playwright] Edward Albee just capturing something so perfect, something that was dormant inside of them, maybe. It feels so real.
Joe: It does. And I'm definitely not claiming, "Oh, they stayed Martha and George forever, and that's why they got divorced." It was only the fourth out of eleven movies together. But I can imagine that it would be tough to act this way—
Sean: Toward your wife! And then go home and be like, "Are you okay?"
Catherine: They were also cast for a reason. I think it was always there. It wasn't like, "Oh shit, now we hate each other." It was always there.
Sean: I like, too, that they were both... Richard Burton was a young, popular actor too, right? They were both these old starlets, in their 50s, and they get cast in this movie—
Joe: Elizabeth Taylor was actually still in her 30s.
Catherine: What the fuck?! I guess I did notice that they grayed her hair a lot.
Joe: And she gained like 40 pounds or something.
Sean: Wow.
Joe: But you're right, she was playing someone in her 50s.
Sean: What was the movie, '64?
Joe: '66.
Sean: So, I know she had done a lot of stuff before that.
Catherine: I don't know if this is important to the character as Edward Albee wrote it, but in the movie, she's obviously still very attractive. So you can imagine she was stunning when she was younger. So I think that plays into how her character has become a little... disillusioned? Or just sad about how her life is now?
Joe: I thought she was so fucking hot in this movie.
Catherine: I mean, she is, yeah. She's gorgeous.
Sean: Does the "animalistic" part of her have any influence on your opinion?
[laughter]
Joe: Am I attracted to sarcastic drunk women? I miss Drunk Pam so much, oh my god. [laughter]
Catherine: When Martha goes to change outfits, and George is like, "Here we fucking go." And she comes out. I love that he accepted that part of her too, that she needs to feel sexually attractive. She never became a mother, so she needs that validation.
Sean: Do you think she gets that from George?
Catherine: No. Remember at the beginning, she wants to kiss him, and he won't let her. She says "Why won't you kiss me?" and it's clearly a lie when he says, "Because I'll get too excited." But that doesn't seem true at all! He's more like, "Leave me alone."
Joe: I know we talked about the title a little bit, but let's dig into it. Is the title just a one-off bit? Or is there more to it than that?
Catherine: There's gotta be more to it. I know that Virginia Woolf was a depressive who killed herself... so that's gotta be something. [laughter]
Joe: In looking it up, someone said that Woolf wrote in a stream-of-consciousness style to "get to the characters emotions," I guess like "tearing down the illusions" of her characters. Maybe that has something to do with it?
Catherine: My knee-jerk reaction is to just say that it was a stupid joke that Martha told at a party. But there's no way that's true. The way Albee wrote this play, there's no way he would just let that go.
Joe: What do you guys imagine is the lead up to that punchline? As two people who write jokes.
Catherine: Something about the three little pigs...? I don't know.
Sean: Maybe it's just some highbrow literature joke? Or a college thing?
Joe: Or is it the point that there couldn't be anything leading up to that joke, or else it would be less funny?
Catherine: Do you think it's important that they are named "George and Martha," like George and Martha Washington?
Joe: Hmm.
Catherine: I just thought of that today, I don't know if it means anything.
Sean: There was a show on HBO that I used to watch as a kid called George and Martha about two hippos that were married to each other. [laughter]
Joe: Did they ever fight?
Catherine: It was like The Lockhorns. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is just an extension of The Lockhorns.
Joe: Do you really think so?
Catherine: I'm just saying this now, I've never thought about it before. [laughter] But it's the same thing type of bit! Older couple whose love has soured. Maybe the lesson here is—
Sean: I can't believe we're talking about The Lockhorns.
[laughter]
Catherine: I love The Lockhorns! I think it's so silly. But I think it's a trope that there's gotta be some truth in. Like, my grandparents hated each other.
Sean: Like, a marriage that has turned into resentment?
Catherine: When you marry for anything other than love. I feel like that happened a lot more, way back when, right? When someone's pregnant, or... I know Martha married George because her father thought that he'd be a good fit. Initially, they thought he'd potentially be next president of the university or whatever.
Joe: Do you think, had this movie taken place... no, do you think this movie could take place in 2019? Or do you think George and Martha would've been divorced already?
Catherine: I think they would've been divorced already.
Joe: So this is a '60s thing. Or, '60s and prior.
Catherine: This is definitely a product of its time. But then again, no, because it only takes place in one night. So you can change the circumstances a little bit, but all you have to show is how bad a relationship can get. The whole movie happens in real time! Which is crazy. You feel exhausted by the end of it. I think you could easily do a 2019 twist. You'd have to tweak some things, but... I think that's why I love it so much! Because it's just a scary, shitty relationship.
Sean: Is it a warning for where a relationship could go?
Catherine: Yeah, I think so. I think I figured my whole life that that's the type of relationship I'd be in. I think I'm a terrible mean drunk.
Joe: Have you been that, in a relationship?
Catherine: Yeah, sure. I've definitely said some things, for no reason, just to hurt someone, just because I thought it would be fun or funny. That's the worst! When it's for an audience of people. And then someone goes, "Why would you say that to me?" And you go, "I don't know. I don't know. I just thought it'd be funny."
Sean: Or you could double-down.
Catherine: [laughter] Or you could double-down!
Joe: You could refuse to admit that it's not funny. "I'm laughing, so it's funny."
Sean: One of my favorite things about the movie is the score. It begins and ends with that guitar [guitar noises].
Catherine: I never really paid attention to that.
Sean: It's so sad. It's a beautiful, simple, sad guitar sound. If anyone reading this knows the guitar tabs for the theme song, put them in the comments! They aren't on the internet. It's not hard, so I could learn it... but I'd rather just have the tabs.
Joe: Okay, speaking of the score, I'm looking at the Oscar list now. Drew was right...
Catherine: That everything it could possibly be nominated for, it was nominated for?
Joe: Fucking uppity Oscar snob! It was nominated for thirteen Oscars, and it was eligible for thirteen. So there ya go. It won five. Regarding the guitar, it did not win Best Score. It lost to... Born Free?
Sean: Is that the one about horses? Lions?
Joe: No fucking clue, but it's the same dude who wrote the Bond theme apparently. So... who knows.
Sean: What did it win?
Joe: Let's see... the females won. Elizabeth Taylor and Sandy Dennis.
Catherine: Makes sense.
Joe: Yeah! What else... oh, and Drew was right again with the fucking "black and white" nonsense. Art Direction, Cinematography, and Costumes, all for "black and white movies" only. It was the last year they had that distinction before they combined the awards with color movies.
Sean: So weird.
Catherine: You know what Drew told me that I don't know why I'm disappointed by? He has heard that this movie was more of a representation of older gay relationships, between two men. Because Edward Albee was gay, but it wasn't as acceptable back then. That it's more representative of how older gay men age together.
Joe: What, with George and Martha?
Catherine: Yeah. She acts more masculine, apparently, because she's a bully.
Joe: And this is Drew theorizing on it?
Catherine: He's heard it somewhere. That's a popular theory. [Editor's note: for the record, Albee has since stated that this theory is "bullshit." Still interesting to talk about it though.]
Joe: Interesting.
Catherine: The only reason I'm disappointed by it is, like, "No... I can act like that too. I can do that." [laughter] But I see that too. There's a documentary that we were watching called Shut Up, Little Man!, in which this guy recorded this older gay couple that lived next to him in the '90s, and it became this viral—it was before "viral" became a thing—they made a documentary about it, about how they were fighting all the time. The big line is [old person voice] "Shut up, little man!" They really scream at each other and dress each other down. One of them was a bully, and one of them was a little more ineffectual. It reminds me of that. I don't know if any of that's true...
Joe: Yeah, I can't speak to any of that! I'll have to footnote that. [Editor's note: Here's a trailer for the documentary. Here's some of the original tapes. Here's an apology for continuously calling editor's notes "footnotes" throughout these interviews, even though they are not at the foot of the interview—Sorry!]
Catherine: He just said it in the car, I was thinking about it a little bit. But! It speaks to the universal nature of relationships, right? It could be gay or straight. Gay or straight, we all hate each other.
[laughter]
Joe: Pam, for the record, I do not hate you.
Sean: I don't hate you either, Pam.
Catherine: Sorry, I'm talking about myself! We're learning a lot about me today. Okay—I do mean that I think love and hate are the same emotion. I think that, especially when you're drunk like that, when you get to that level, and it's five in the morning—realistically, they've been drinking for ten hours, right?
Joe: Right, because that was Nick's excuse, about how he couldn't get it up. It's a good excuse. I can empathize.
Catherine: That's valid... I assume. I've heard. [laughter] I don't know, do either of you relate to that?
Joe: That we can't get it up?
Catherine: No, no, no, no. [laughter] No, like love and hate being tied together? That you can say and do things to the people that you love that are very cruel.
Joe: Because you're more comfortable with them, maybe?
Sean: Do you think it takes as much to really love somebody as it takes to really hate somebody? Because you can say it in words, but...
Catherine: I don't know what I'm getting at. I think that they just fucked up, that the dysfunctional relationship, because they're both passionate, really smart people, that they let it sour.
Joe: I'll say this. I think it's dysfunctional because at no point do they acknowledge that anything they said was shitty. So, yes, love—in my opinion—you may be too comfortable, and you may say things that are shitty, because you mean them, and it might be the truth, but then later on, it's like, "Okay, the truth might've hurt this person," hurt your significant other. So you backtrack, because of the love.
Catherine: Okay, that's where their lack of love is evident.
Sean: They have more hate.
Catherine: They don't care enough about the other person to backtrack, like you said, or consider each other's feelings.
Sean: Because it's a game, they can both be like, "Well, whether we think it or not, let's just brush it off."
Joe: Is that what the ending was, with Martha staring off into the distance? What was she thinking there? Was that her realizing her thoughts? Was that her realizing that she was stuck? What was going on there?
Catherine: Definitely some sort of rock bottom. Like I said before, I think they switched roles, where he is the powerful one, and almost like a caretaker. She's depleted after that. After the hypothetical son dies, she's more in touch with reality than she was before. Hmmm... that's what so great about this movie, because we have no idea. We just have to speculate.
Joe: They leave it up in the air.
Catherine: It's great. But at first, when I watched it—even when I recently watched it—I just thought he wants to win, he wants to win the game, so he's like, "Our son is dead. Done. I win." He loses it. But I was reading more about it, and I read that he's decided that they've gone too far into the illusion, of this fabricated story, and he's like, "We can't do this anymore. We need to break the illusion so that we can move on and start over" and possibly rehabilitate this fucked up relationship.
Joe: That's a kind way of looking at it.
Catherine: That's what some people think. I didn't see it that way. They do end the movie just kind of holding each other quietly. And sad.
Joe: I guess, if we're talking about our own personal flaws, that's probably where I would relate most to George. That desire to "win," like in an argument or something.
Catherine: You're never going to have a functional relationship if two people—like George and Martha, they love the game so much, they're both vying to be the winner. That's the not love, that's not setting aside your own feelings because you care about the other person. That's just, "I just want to fucking win, and I'll do whatever it takes to get there." And I was going to say she seems to value that more, but he pulls out the big guns in the end.
Joe: It's not fucking healthy.
Catherine: No, not at all. They are both so beyond healthy that they're like, "Well, we're just going to die miserable, so we might as well have fun."
Sean: I know critics love this movie, but I'm curious as to what audiences in the '60s thought about this movie.
Catherine: It's exhausting! It's not a movie you can be like, "Hey, what should we watch tonight? How about..."
Joe: That's probably why Pam didn't like it when we watched it together. We went through a short phase when Willow was first born where we watched a lot of movies. And this was on my list. We watched it, and it was like an hour in, and we were like, "This is too fucking much." But... we're up all night anyway, so... [laughter]
Catherine: Also, if you get distracted at all, even for a few minutes—
Sean: The dialogue is so fast.
Catherine: It's so fast, and you're like, "What the fuck is going on?"
Joe: It definitely felt like they were on stage. Which I guess is the point, that there wasn't too much different between set and stage.
Catherine: And you're like, "Who talks like that?" I feel like they did as good a job as anyone could, in making it authentic.
Joe: Both the stage and the movie adaptation were both, I guess, "groundbreaking in their profanity and sexual content." Like, ya know, all the '60s Christian groups or whoever were protesting the movie.
Catherine: I mean, it's all innuendos anyway. And then they show just the shadows of them embracing.
Joe: I guess it was probably the language. What was the phrase you mentioned earlier? "Angel Tits"?
Catherine: And "Monkey Nipples"!
Sean: What does that mean?
Catherine: I don't know!
[laughter]
Joe: They changed a "Screw you!" to a "Goddamn you!" for the movie. Which is... apparently better?
Catherine: Yeah, isn't that worse for some people?
Joe: And now, in the current stage adaptation, they say "Fuck you!" It's just funny, how times change like that.
Catherine: I remember seeing, when we first moved to New York, that it was on Broadway, and I wanted to see it. But I remember that the woman playing Martha was—this is weird, and this is normally not important—but she was very... unattractive? Very unattractive. And I feel like there's something lost there. I think it's important that she's sexy. [Editor's note: Pretty sure it was this version of the play, as far as I can tell. Subjectively speaking, I mean... yeah. I would probably be more distracted that the dad from Lady Bird was apparently playing George.]
Joe: She wasn't sexy?
Catherine: She looked like a young version of the mom from Sopranos. [laughter]
Joe: Edie Falco?
Catherine: No! Like, Tony Soprano's mom.
Joe: Oh Jesus! [laughter]
Catherine: The worst insult!
Sean: [Livia Soprano impression] "Tony!"
Joe: I thought it was interesting that you were one of two Facebook friends of mine that has liked the official Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? fan page.
Catherine: Oh yeah? [laughter] Oh my god. Who's the other one?
Joe: This chick I knew in high school who's a total Martha.
Catherine: I don't know why... Facebook used to be different. It would show up under "Favorite Movies and Music," and you'd have to pick one to show it off.
Joe: And then they turned into "pages."
Sean: Have you gotten any updates from the page lately? [laughter]
Joe: The page basically just wishes Elizabeth Taylor happy birthday every year—
Catherine: —even though she's dead.
Joe: Okay, so let's continue with the Facebook thing. On December 14, 2011, you Facebooked about—
Catherine: Oh no. No, no, what is this part?!
Sean: Oh no.
Joe: The Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? drinking game!
Catherine: Oh shit!
Sean: We were talking about that today.
Joe: Yes, your name was dropped in this post, Sean.
Catherine: How did you do that? This is some Nardwuar shit.
Joe: I just fucking typed in the search bar on Facebook! Did you guys play it?
Catherine: Yes!
Sean: It was us, Pat, Erin, and Drew.
Catherine: Was Pat still drinking at the time?
Sean: Oh, absolutely.
Joe: Is this why Pat stopped drinking? [laughter]
Catherine: I don't remember the rules.
Joe: So, I clicked on the link.
Sean: Was it a photo of us on the stairwell?
Catherine: We were all in the Townhouses.
Joe: No, it was a URL to a website. It was like a Geocities website that had all the rules. It seemed to be that everyone was assigned a character, and you drink when a character does a certain thing.
Catherine: I remember there were chugging moments, like, "When Honey screams 'Violence!', you chug." I remember it was the big quotes.
Sean: Probably when they say "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?" and "What a mess!" That sort of thing.
Joe: Me and Maeve talked about it last week, how I don't... I've never really enjoyed those types of drinking games.
Catherine: Really?
Joe: Yeah, like, "When this thing happens, you drink." But maybe the fact that you are assigned certain characters, and are only assigned certain things, might help I guess? I feel like people lose concentration after a while.
Catherine: Oh, we definitely did then.
Sean: You can tell him how it ended.
Catherine: Sean passed out, and we handcuffed him to a bunch of shit we found in his room.
Sean: Hangers with like fifteen pounds of clothes on them. With Pat and Erin's kinky handcuffs!
[laughter]
Sean: They were fuzzy, cheetah-print handcuffs.
Catherine: And he slept the whole night like that. We just left you!
Sean: You put cans of soup on top of me, and then just left.
Catherine: Back when we thought that was funny.
Sean: I mean, it's still funny.
Joe: So what character were you?
Sean: I don't remember.
Catherine: You're a George... that's a compliment and an insult.
Joe: Yeah? Do you think you're a George, or do you think you're a Nick? ...or a Honey? [laughter]
Sean: I'm more of a George, I think. Though where he gets to in the end, I could never see myself... I have never done that. Or anything close to that. But I do have a part of myself in me that, if I'm pushed hard enough... like, I've yelled at people, and then immediately been like, "Oh my god, why did I do that?"
Catherine: [laughter] Because you're such a sweetie pie.
Sean: I'm sure I've said some awful things if I'm pushed. But I have a personality where I put up with stuff, I put up with stuff happening.
Joe: Sounds like a Nick to me.
Sean: Maybe. I mean, look at me. I'm peeling labels as I talk about things.
Catherine: He peels labels, like Honey.
Joe: You might be a Honey! Who knows.
Catherine: I think we all have a little of all of them in us. Maybe.
Joe: We'll see how the rest of the night pans out, and how much of a Honey you become. [Editor's note: We did this interview right before Maeve's 30th birthday party, the one mentioned last week in an editor's note. You remember, it was the party that gave Mike Scott PTSD, which made him punch an Eagles fan in the head.]
Sean: When it's 2 AM and we're still drinking.
Catherine: She's the only one that doesn't drink much. She gets fucking hammered.
Sean: I forget, is she more playful than anyone else, and hurt by things being said? Does she attack anybody?
Catherine: No, she's the pure-of-heart character. But also kind of naive. She gets drunk like she's sixteen and has never drank before. Don't you think she's a really interesting character? Like, very interestingly cast? From far away, she's cute. But she's kind of goofy looking up close?
Joe: So goofy looking.
Sean: Well, she does have monkey nipples.
Catherine: Drew was talking in the car about how ugly she was—
Joe: Oh lord.
Catherine: —and I remember thinking, at first, that she's cute. Because she's got bright blonde hair, and wears pearls or whatever, and just looks like a nice housewife. And yeah, then you get up close, and you're like, "Uh oh."
Joe: I mean, I... was too taken with Elizabeth Taylor to even consider Sandy Dennis, so...
Catherine: But I think that's important, the way they all look.
Joe: I was kind of, without even knowing that Sandy Dennis won Best Supporting Actress, I was blown away by her acting, by the end of the movie, how she—
Catherine: It builds up.
Sean: They're all such good characters.
Catherine: You make a decision about her immediately, that she's not going to be anything, that she's not even acting that well. And then it's like, "what the fuck." Then she does some really interesting stuff.
Joe: Do you think people who hang out with other sober people would appreciate Sandy Dennis' performance as much as we do?
Catherine: Because of how well she plays a drunk person?
Joe: Just as far as... all the characters were drunk at some point. I know I saw certain friends in certain scenarios in Sandy Dennis' performance.
Catherine: Name names! [laughter]
Joe: I mean, I don't want to be a hypocrite, because I've been a Honey in my life.
Catherine: We all have!
Sean: But yeah, I know somebody directly who acts like that. Can this be off-the-record? [Person] is like this. He doesn't drink much, but when he does, he's, like, making bad jokes, and... [laughter]
Catherine: She's almost embarrassing sometimes. You can tell Nick is a little embarrassed by her. He's getting a glimpse into his future, like, man, if you marry the wrong person... it's horrifying.
Sean: Do you Nick is more like George or Martha?
Catherine: I don't think he's smart enough to be either of them. He's just a social-climbing... I don't want to say "sociopath," but he doesn't seem to care about... on a surface level, he's like, "Oh Honey, you've had too much to drink."
Joe: What does it say when I watch Honey's behavior and it doesn't faze me?
Catherine: You're saying somebody that doesn't drink that much.
Joe: Say somebody becomes "Honey" at the party we're going to tonight. At that point there would be somebody else that would be like, "Oh god, we have to take care of her, we have to make sure she gets home safe." And I wouldn't be that person.
Catherine: I think Honey is the victim in all of this. I don't look at her and say, "Aw, she's a mess." The only reason they're not Honey, is because they're the actual alcoholics who have been drinking this heavily their whole lives. And she's the sweet one who doesn't drink that much, and she's trying to keep up with them all night... this is how this amount of alcohol should be affecting them. They've got stone livers, and she's just a sweetheart, who's... I think she's the only good character in the movie.
Joe: Me and Pam were talking about—tangentially—this topic recently, because one of my boys who I grew up with just became sober. He's like 150 days sober, and doesn't plan on drinking anymore. So, my first reaction is, I'm very proud of him for doing this. My second reaction is, "Why didn't I see that he had a problem?" I've drank with him a thousand times in my life.
Catherine: It's a person-to-person thing. I think someday I'll have to quit totally.
Joe: I feel like we all think that sometimes.
Catherine: But I don't act differently. Remember how [off-the-record], he knew he had to quit because of how he acted? It's not like he kept a flask on him at all times or he would freak out or something. He wasn't addicted. He just couldn't...
Joe: The times that he did drink, he would smash his face into a car.
Catherine: Right, and I don't do that. But I think I'm probably slowly drinking myself to death.
Sean: I think I did all that during periods when I wasn't happy, and realized that I was hurting other people. And then I broke off relationships with those people, and couldn't stop. I mean, I can handle it okay now.
Joe: I guess I'm coming at it from another perspective though. People that have these problems, and I'm sitting here, not willing or able to see those problems. Like, I see Honey acting the way she did, and was like, "Okay, that's normal." But what does that say about me?
Catherine: But I think that's normal too. I think that's a normal reaction to that amount of alcohol.
Joe: So what does that say about us? That we see Honey as "normal."
Catherine: But she's only normal because you're not supposed to drink as much as she did, or as much as they all did. But they all do it so much that they have a tolerance. She doesn't. I think that it affects everybody different. I've known a ton of people that have gotten sober, not because they killed somebody with their car, but because it wasn't working for them anymore. There was no "rock bottom" moment, they just... had to stop. I think it's probably... for the best? I don't know.
Sean: Okay, I'm a Honey.
[laughter]
Catherine: Do you relate to a certain character?
Joe: I dunno. I mean, gun to my head, it'd probably be... George? Either George or Martha I guess! You would have to ask this to Pam, whether she'd consider me a George or a Martha. Like, where we stand in that... when we fight, I guess, I would be more the Martha?
Catherine: Antagonizing a little bit?
Joe: Yeah, for sure. Like I said, definitely some of George's sulkiness, in the beginning.
Catherine: Yeah.
Joe: I'm painting a great picture of myself right now.
Sean: I think we all are.
Joe: "I'm the worst of both of them!"
Catherine: "I'm a piece of shit!" Keep that on the record! [laughter] But he's sulky in the beginning, but... I think he's just tired. He's like, "Alright, we're in private now, I don't have to deal with your bullshit anymore."
Joe: There's so much flop sweat between the two of them. I dunno, it's a tough question, "who do you relate to," because there's no "good" character in this movie... besides the silent waitress that comes out, I guess. [laughter]
Catherine: With the pure vodka, yeah! I was wondering what she was giving them, because it looks like glasses of water. It must be pure vodka. And they were like, "Just one more round, please!"
Joe: "A tall triple of vodka, please." [laughter]
Sean: What did we think of their dancing?
Catherine: Not great dancers.
Joe: I did appreciate that the director did a lot of, like, Dutch angles, and the camera was just doing all this crazy stuff at that bar. A lot of overhead shots. I guess the dude... Mike Nichols, this was his first time directing.
Catherine: He's the best.
Sean: Do you know if he directed the play at any point too?
Joe: Not that I saw in my research. I mean, I don't know shit about movie directors in general. I think he was the Graduate director?
Catherine: And The Birdcage.
Joe: Oh, no shit? Pam loves that one.
Catherine: Yeah, he has a really diverse repertoire. I really like that part. Apparently—Drew told me this, I didn't read the play or see if on stage—but apparently that part didn't happen in the play. It all takes place in their home. All the dialogue is the same, but he just decided, let's move this to a different location for a little bit.
Joe: Makes sense.
Catherine: Which is great, because they almost escape! They almost get away, but they rope them back in.
Sean: There are moments where there is a little bit of peace, but they keep coming back.
Catherine: I love the moments when the characters you wouldn't expect to fraternize do so and team up. Like George and Nick on the swing, George being like, "You wanna fuck my wife, right?" And he's like, "Yeah, a little bit." And they're very candid with each other, it's fascinating.
Joe: The chemistry between the cross-section of characters. It kind of reminded me of the Linklater trilogy, ya know, Before Sunrise and all that. Just how it was very talk-y.
Sean: It's just the style. Well-written dialogue.
Catherine: Which is really hard to do. It's not entertaining unless it's really well done.
Joe: It entertains me a lot. Getting excitement from the conversation.
Catherine: I don't know why I love that so much. This is my favorite movie, it is, but it's not something you can just sit down and watch, like, I dunno, Indiana Jones. It's not always fun to watch, but it's one of the most enriching cinematic experiences. It's the only movie I've ever seen that speaks to the nature of human relationships that I've never seen before, like, how dark they can get.
Joe: It's an honest movie. Is this your statement for why it's your favorite movie?
Catherine: I think so. It's not an easy watch, but it always leaves me introspective.
Joe: It challenges you, as an audience member.
Catherine: Exactly.
Joe: So what does that say about you as a person? Because there are people who I've interviewed that have said that opposite. Like, "This is my favorite movie because I don't have to think about it, because I can just put it on and forget about the world." What—maybe not you specifically—but the difference between "I have to think about this movie a lot" and "I don't have to think about this movie at all." Where does the difference come about?
Catherine: To each their own. Maybe this is pretentious, but it does challenge me as a person, like true art should. I guess it's just, the term "favorite movie," it's like, what does that even mean? This is the movie that has "affected" me most in my life.
Joe: I appreciate when people say they can use movies to forget, and I definitely sometimes use movies to forget, but I probably tend to fall on your side of the fence. I like them better when they can be a mirror for myself—"Am I like these people? Should I be like these people?"
Catherine: And what an amazing gift, right? That that exists. Because I'm a cynical bitch when it comes to most stuff, "This sucks, this isn't realistic, this person wouldn't talk like that" or something. But this movie blew me away when I first saw it.
Joe: When did you first see it?
Catherine: College. We were prepping for finals. Junior year, I think? We just decided to watch it on a whim.
Joe: This is when you were doing the drinking game?
Catherine: That was the second time, because we were so blown away by it—
Sean: We had shown Erin and Pat, like, "You gotta watch this."
Catherine: And also, [La Salle's] the Masque, it's a theater group, and the movie was a play first... didn't we apply—?
Sean: We submitted to the Masque to do this play.
Catherine: [laughter] Can you imagine?
Sean: A bunch of fucking 19-year-olds... it would be trash.
Joe: So a question would be—
Catherine: Who would we have cast in this show if the Masque did it?
Joe: Yes!
Sean: I would love to play George.
Catherine: But, I mean yeah, I would love to play Martha, but do you think really would happen?
Joe: Would you cast yourselves? We've already talked about the three of us, and how we relate to these characters. So take us out of it. Who would you cast?
Catherine: See, I don't want to take you out, because I think you'd make a really good George.
Joe: Take me out of it.
Catherine: Fine!
Sean: Are we talking about just friends?
Joe: The Masque. People in our friend group who would hypothetically try out for this, during the time period when we went to school together.
Catherine: Let's do some gender swap and do Drew as Martha.
[laughter]
Joe: Yeah? Okay. He can act out his "older gay men" theory about the movie.
Catherine: He was the first person that came to mind. I think Hannah as Martha, because I think Hannah has a real dark streak. She's be great. Drew might be a good Nick, because he can look very presentable.
Joe: And Nick is the only actor who is still alive.
Catherine: Oh really?
Joe: And I feel like Drew is going to outlive us all as well.
Catherine: Really? I don't know about that... [laughter] You can put that in, I don't care. [laughter] Meg M***** is a sweetie pie, she might be a good Honey.
Joe: I could see that!
Catherine: Sean, you're thinking too much!
Sean: We're not asking who of our friends have these personalities, right?
Catherine: No, just who would be capable of playing them.
Joe: I guess their personalities might fit into it sometimes? Just knowing these people, and these characters.
Sean: It's so hard to cast. It's so much harder than, like, "You're a Phoebe, and you're a Joey."
Joe: Would it have to be a couple to play the main roles, just like the Burtons in the movie?
Catherine: I was trying not to say this, but I think Sam would also be a good George, because he seems... quiet? And can take a punch or two? But not in a weak way!
Joe: Looks good drenched in that flop sweat?
Catherine: Yeah!
Joe: I dunno. I dunno if I could see Sam going off the deep end like George did.
Sean: I could see Pat being George.
Joe: Like, Pat and Erin playing George and Martha?
Catherine: Oooh.
Sean: 100%! We found it.
Joe: I could see Erin being a Martha.
Catherine: I don't think she's actually like that at all—
Joe: No!
Catherine: —but she could play it really well.
Joe: Absolutely.
Sean: I think Dwyer could play the girl who serves the vodka.
[laughter]
Joe: [Dwyer impression] "Dood, you want another around? Are you serious?!" [laughter] Oh Christ. No, going back though, I feel that, that it makes you think about your own actions.
Catherine: It's a good cautionary tale! When you're in a relationship, it's not a game. It's not just about yourself. Consider your partner's feelings. I think, honestly, I'm in a relationship right now—and this is maybe because I'm just getting older—it's the only time in my life that I've taken the time to consider that. Like, when we're arguing, it's not just about me. And you have to be careful about what you say and what you do. When you're in a partnership, you have to consider the feelings of somebody else.
Sean: Let's hope we all don't turn into Georges and Marthas.
Catherine: That's why I love it, because that possibility is very real.
Joe: It's tough to be confronted with that truth. Ya know? It's tough to look at yourself and ask, "Am I like George? Am I like Martha?" If there's any part of you that says "Yes," then it's like, shiiiiit.
Catherine: I think I'm completely like Martha, and the only thing that's different is that I won't let myself do those things. She does it for fun, and I recognize that part of myself, but I won't do it, because... not that she doesn't have empathy, but... I don't know.
Joe: I don't know if she does.
Catherine: Maybe not. Honestly.
Joe: But you yourself, Catherine, want to have empathy.
Catherine: Yes, I would like to consider other people.
Joe: You are more human than Martha is.
Catherine: She resents George for making her love him, which is... wild. Oh, and my favorite line in the whole movie, which was just so piercing, was, "I swear to God, if you existed, I'd divorce you." God! Right? Holy shit, when she says that. It's only a quarter of the way through the movie, and you're like, Jesus, she doesn't even see him as a person.
Joe: Watching it a second time, I noticed the line when Martha was talking about the Betty Davis movie, and she's quoting her, but she looks George right in the eye and says, "'She's discontent.'" As if she's talking about herself.
Catherine: "What a dump!"
Joe: Apparently Betty Davis was supposed to play that part originally. She was the first choice. So she would've been quoting herself.
Catherine: That would be weird. And then, I think this is a really important one: "I think that's what I like about you most—your anger." That's what Martha says to George. It's part of the game. She's trying to provoke him. I think that's the only time that she's... maybe because they've been married so long, that's the only time there's a spark of life in him, is when she's able to piss him off. That might be what this whole game is about—he's tired of her, so if she can piss him off...
Sean: I like the idea that her seductiveness doesn't necessarily work on him.
Joe: I wrote down the quote of him describing marriage as "full of dashed hopes and good intentions."
Catherine: But what happened to the good intentions? I don't even see those anymore.
Joe: Honestly.
Catherine: They've gone so far past that. There's so much ill-intent.
Sean: Fun movie.
Joe: Yeah, what a fun movie!
Catherine: It's a romp.
Joe: All kinds of messed up shit, but it goes back to "what we learned" from this movie. Like you said, cautionary tale.
Catherine: Do you think everyone should watch this before they get married?
Joe: [laughter] Yeah, all seven people reading this right now are questioning their marriage.
Sean: There are people still reading this who haven't seen the movie?
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