If this were a Scorsese movie, there would be a narrator telling you that you are now reading another entry of Your Favorite Movie.
Have you lived in Northeast Philly in the past ten years at any point? If so, you probably know Ant S*******. Like, for example, if you've been to McNally's, you've probably seen Ant Stringer hanging around (you may have even been able to give him a fake $100 bill when he was tending bar). Everyone knows Ant. Everyone has their favorite Ant story.
I have plenty of Ant stories (he is my brother-in-law's cousin and was his best man, so I see him often, even though my McNally's days are a bit behind me), but I won't share any more here, because we got together to only talk Ant's favorite movie. That movie is The Wolf of Wall Street. We had some shit to say about it.
In fact, I'll say this—depending on why you read these things, this might be a "jump the shark" situation for you. If you don't like how repetitive these things can get sometimes (my fault), then you might not find a lot to like here. If you get butthurt because you think I just use these as an excuse to argue with people, then you might be really sore after this one.
For me, I was a little weary as I went through and transcribed all this, not because I thought it was bad (I honestly was really happy with what Ant had to share), and not because I dislike the movie (I really like it), but because the arguments that I (drunkenly) proposed made me feel like I was in high school again, back to the days when I was cocksure and fucking ignorant.
It's like, I think I am right when I make these arguments, but I feel like I'm terrible at making them. Are you an anti-capitalist? Cool, so am I, and get ready to be embarrassed that such an ignorant asshole could believe in the same things as you.
I dunno. I'm happy that I get to post this, and I am really grateful that the infamous Ant S******* gave me the time to talk about something that he likes, and I honestly think that he is dead-ass wrong with a lot of the stuff that he says... but all that being said, I still feel like I came off in the wrong light here. I dunno. Read on. Tell me what you think. Enjoy...?
Oh, and of course, this all posted here with Ant's permission, and edited slightly due to the fact that we were drinking beers for breakfast and you know how these things go. We had a big crew there during the interview, and a bunch of people got their licks in at certain points. Pam, my wife, and Bob, my aforementioned brother-in-law (and aforementioned butthurt reader, as he feels like I did a bad job with his Lord of the Rings interview) did the majority of the heavy-lifting besides me and Ant. It was real fun! I would do this again, however unsure I felt about my own performance here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ant: I'm pulling up IMDB.
Bob: For what?! Haven't you seen the movie?
Ant: For the character list.
Joe: I guess that's legit. That's fair. Yeah, what are the characters' names? We got, uh...
Bob: I don't even know.
Ant: Jordan Belfort. Donnie. Naomi. Brad—can't forget Brad, he has a heart attack.
Pam: Oh, the muscly guy?
Ant: Yeah.
Joe: He was the dude who starts the fight in Dazed and Confused, right?
Pam: What?
Joe: Right? Isn't it the same actor? [Editor's note: Not even close. Brad is played by Jon Bernthal, while Dazed and Confused's Clint is played by Nicky Katt]
Pam: I haven't seen Dazed and Confused.
Joe: "We're here for beer and fighting, and we're all out of beer."
Ant: Well, the one dude from Boy Meets World—Frankie? Big Frankie? He's in it. Ethan Suplee.
Joe: The brother from My Name Is Earl. And he was in Mallrats.
Bob: Alright, I'm dying right now.
Pam: Start your questions.
Joe: Okay, we'll start with this. A lot of our mutual friends are precious snowflakes who may get offended by any points that I'm trying to make—Bob—
[laughter]
Joe: So I want to start for the record, right here at the beginning, that I really like this movie.
Ant: You lied. You told me that you didn't like it.
Joe: When did I say that?!
Ant: You texted me and said "Doesn't mean I like the movie..."
Joe: Right, no, when I texted you, I said I'm really excited to talk about the movie, but that doesn't mean that I love the movie. I'm saying that I really liked the movie, and any points that I'm trying to make, to somebody else those points might be "nit-picky" or whatever. Nobody, like Bob, should get offended by it.
Ant: Nah, you know me, there's not much that offends me.
Bob: I'm offended already. [laughter]
Joe: Well, I don't want, like, Boober getting offended when I'm digging into the nitty-gritty and saying negative things about this movie, because overall I like this movie, and I'm not trying to "bash" it. [Editor's note: I'm mainly busting balls here, but it's a reference to the argument/discussion that was had on Facebook under a previous YFM interview.]
Pam: I think it's okay to dissect the movie. That's part of the interview process.
Ant: The movie is very dissectable, because it's so long. There's parts of the movie that I like, there are parts of the movie that I don't like.
Joe: It's a lot. It's a detailed movie. Scorsese flexed a lot during this movie, like, "This is what I can do." So let's start there. Let's talk about Scorsese, and his role as director in 2013, when this came out. To me—and this is going to be a negative thing, Bob, so be aware—it just feels like rooting for Scorsese feels like rooting for Babe Ruth-era Yankees, like, he's just flexing. To me, that's not somebody who you should root for.
Pam: He worked really hard to win an Oscar, finally. He hadn't won an Oscar in a long time.
Joe: And he did not win it for this.
Pam: He didn't win until recently.
Ant: So, there are a couple of movies that I really like from Scorsese. All of them include Leonardo DiCaprio.
Joe: I guess they do work together a lot.
Ant: Wolf of Wall Street. Shutter Island. And The Departed.
Joe: But Leo is not the reason you like Scorsese. Or is it? I dunno.
Ant: I really like Leonardo DiCaprio. Even as a kid. Call me crazy, but Titanic is one of my favorite movies.
Pam: We were just talking about that yesterday.
Joe: We were talking about how shitty Leonardo DiCaprio is in Titanic.
Ant: Oh, yeah, awful. But, I mean, was he good in in Basketball Diaries?
Joe: Was he good in Gilbert Grape?
Ant: I really like Leo.
Joe: You like him in this movie specifically?
Ant: Yes, I really do.
Joe: I agree, in that he inhabited the role.
Ant: I'll tell you what, man. I know for a fact that Jonah Hill was offered thirty grand to play Donnie.
Joe: I guess that's something that plays into my opinion of Scorsese. Like, why the fuck wouldn't you just pay Jonah Hill the money? You... you were right about the idea, but wrong about the specific amount. The minimum salary, per the Screen Actors Guild, is 60 thousand dollars, and he took the minimum, Jonah Hill did. Because he wanted to work with Scorsese so much.
Ant: But you have to figure that the kid comes from Superbad, and The Sitter. He's not...
Joe: But he's a professional who deserves to be paid for what he's doing. And Scorsese is in the position that he could pay Jonah Hill more than the minimum, but he didn't. He let Jonah Hill take the minimum.
Ant: Jonah Hill worked for it, for every penny in that movie.
Joe: And... let's be real, sixty thousand dollars is a lot of money.
Pam: [laughter] Um, yeah!
Ant: But in the grand scheme of things, when you have Leonardo DiCaprio—I have no idea how much money he made in this movie—
Joe: No, that's the other thing. DiCaprio got paid ten million dollars for this role. So... I dunno, if I was Martin Scorsese, I'd be like, "No, you're doing a really good job as Donnie, you deserve more than sixty thousand dollars. You deserve to get paid for what you're doing."
Pam: Yeah, but Leonardo DiCaprio was the bigger star.
Ant: I think that Jonah Hill, I feel like him being part of this film gave him more opportunities in the future.
Joe: He got an Oscar nom.
Ant: It was a role that he had never played before. I had never seen him play something serious, ever.
Joe: I get it. He's doing it for the "cred," working on a Scorsese movie.
Pam: He's in the "club" of more elite actors now.
Ant: He's still a babysitter.
Joe: But the overarching problem I have is that Scorsese is in a position to pay someone who we feel is a legitimate actor, and yet he gets paid the minimum amount of money.
Pam: But doesn't someone like Bryce Harper get so much more money than his teammates?
Joe: I'm not talking numbers. And like I said, 60 thousand dollars is more money that I'd make in a year. But I'm a big advocate of people getting paid what they deserve. What they earned.
Pam: I think it was fine to pay him that.
Joe: Okay, that's fine. But, okay, so, what about Scorsese in general, do you agree with me...
Bob: He makes some great movies.
Ant: I mean, he's probably one of the best directors of all time. Goodfellas is one of the best, coming from an Italian family.
Joe: Do you feel like Scorsese has a shtick? Like, ya know, a template for movies, and he sticks to that template, and that makes the movie worse?
Bob: Worse?!
Joe: Okay, so when you're watching a Scorsese movie, you know that it's going to be long, you know that there's going to be a narrator who's telling you a story of someone who is devolving into bacchanalia and disgrace, and that's the type of movie that he makes! Besides The Last Waltz, I guess. But, is that a bad thing, when you know exactly the type of movie that a director is going to make, and you're not surprised at all?
Ant: I mean, I don't go into a movie thinking, "Oh, Martin Scorsese directed this movie, it's going to be like this, this, and this." I go into a movie really excited. You see a trailer for it, and you think, "Man, this is going to be awesome." The fact that you say that there's always a narrator, I would never have thought about that.
Joe: But you do now, now that I brought it up.
Ant: There's a movie made back in the '70s, Cape Fear. [Editor's note: 1991]
Joe: Is that Scorsese?
Ant: Yeah. Robert DeNiro was starring.
Joe: Of course he was.
Ant: No, DeNiro wasn't even starring. It was about this family, the guy was a military guy, or government guy, and he had a daughter who had a substitute teacher—Robert DeNiro, who became obsessed with her, and it was a huge feud between the dad and the teacher in the high school.
Joe: So what's your point about Cape Fear? That it wasn't a Scorsese-type of movie?
Ant: Exactly.
Joe: That he can branch out when he wants to.
Ant: Yeah. But he sets the tone for a lot of this. A lot of directors—I don't know a ton of directors—but Scorsese's one of the best. Between him and James Cameron. They are probably my top two.
Joe: What, with Avatar?
Pam: I think Scorsese has kind of grown into that style. He may not have had that style in the '70s. He's probably thought that this type of movie works, and it's the type of movie he enjoys making. And I don't think it's detrimental for a director to have a style. Every Wes Anderson movie has the same style. [Editor's note: Hold that thought for next week's Steve Zissou discussion.]
Joe: Okay, that's fair.
Pam: But who was the director from There Will Be Blood? Because we talked about how he was different in every movie.
Joe: Paul Thomas Anderson.
Pam: He has more of a range, I guess. But it's different strokes.
Ant: Can I get another beer?
Pam: You haven't finished that one!
Joe: Yeah man, there's still a lot of beer in there.
Ant: Alright, we're talking about the movie. [laughter]
Joe: Let's talk about this, and this might only be tangentially related to the movie itself—
Ant: Yeah, when are we going to talk about the movie?!
Joe: We're circling it. This is what I want to do for now, circle it and hit it with a stick from a broad range. At the time, Wolf of Wall Street broke the record for the most times saying the word "fuck" in a movie. There is 506 times that a character says it.
Ant: Can I ask something? Did you count it?
[laughter]
Joe: No. IMDB trivia. It broke the record at the time. Scorsese has broken this record with a lot of his movies.
Pam: Breaking his own records?
Joe: No, other movies will break his record, and then he'll make a movie with more fucks in it. But I wanted to ask you about this, because Bob was real pissed off a few weeks ago when I got into an argument about it with my Mom Mom about the use of that word. She was making the argument that it seems "ignorant" when you use it. Which I didn't agree with, and scientifically, it's been suggested that it's a sign of intelligence, when you use more swears. So, I wanted to get your opinion, on the record, about... how do you feel about the movie using the word "fuck" 506 times, and what does that say about the characters? Or about you as the audience, do you appreciate it? Etc.
Ant: I feel like it definitely comes down to the way it's being used. Honestly, I probably use the word "fuck" more than anyone. Bob, you can attest to that. I curse more than anyone. But at the same time, I'm not damning anyone, like, "fuck you!" or something. It's just a "crunch word." I think that it comes down to intelligence. Like, when you hear someone just saying "fuck fuck fuck fuck." You want someone who's going to...
Joe: Who's going to use "fuck" appropriately, in conversation. Or creatively.
Ant: Yeah, but at the same time, it's... I honestly feel like "fuck" is just a common word.
Joe: It can be cathartic sometimes, to say it.
Ant: I use it all the time.
Joe: When you say it, do you feel like people find you more intelligent?
Ant: I never really thought about it. It's definitely a crunch word.
Joe: What does that mean?
Ant: A crunch word? It's a word used when someone doesn't know what else to say, like, "fuck this, fuck that."
Joe: Is that something that people should notice in the movie, that the characters say "fuck" so much?
Ant: No.
Pam: I didn't notice it.
Ant: Honestly, Joe, the fact that you brought it up is like, "Wow, this dude really cares about this movie."
Joe: You're talking about me?
Ant: Yeah, that you're really noticing what's going on in this movie.
Pam: No, he just goes on IMDB trivia.
Joe: [laughter] Yup.
Pam: I wouldn't have noticed. I feel like it's so commonplace to use language like that. If you had asked me if this movie cursed a lot, I would be like, "...I guess?" I wouldn't think it could be record-breaking.
Joe: What does that say about us as parents? [laughter]
Bob: It's also four hours long, so that they have more time to get the actual words in.
[laughter]
Ant: Hey Bob. No one asked you.
Joe: No, somebody did ask him, on Facebook. He responded, "why are we arguing about this?"
Bob: I felt bad for her.
Pam: Because Joe scolds her?
Joe: No! I'm going to call somebody out if they are factually wrong about something. She was factually wrong about that.
Bob: And now you're arguing about it on Ant's time.
Joe: No, if she's going to post something that says "Using foul language drops your IQ by 95 points"?! That's... the idea of IQ is so scientifically inaccurate in general, anyway...
Ant: It's a different generation.
Joe: But if she's going to post something that's factually wrong, I'm going to call her out on it, politics or no.
Ant: Okay.
Pam: Alright, next question.
Joe: No, these are the topics that I want to delve into!
Ant: To summarize all that, you asked me what I thought about the word "fuck" 506 times. You could say it 3000 times, I wouldn't notice.
Joe: That's not what I asked. I asked does this movie seem "dumber" or "more intelligent" because of this use. Or does it not make a difference?
Ant: It doesn't make a difference.
Joe: Okay, that's fair. I agree! For the record I agree!
Ant: The movie is what's actually going on in the movie, what the characters are doing, and all that, not that they use the word "fuck."
Joe: I agree with you. There are people that had a problem with this movie because of the curse words, and because of the gratuitous acts. The fucking National Catholic Reporter had a pretty scathing editorial about this movie. Another group that had a problem with this movie was animal rights activists. There was a brief scene with a monkey on roller skates?
Pam: Oh god.
Joe: Apparently, the monkey—who's name is Chance—had "irreversible psychological damage" because he was forced to learn to roller-skate. And now, since he was in that movie, he is unable to interact with other chimps.
Pam: Aw. That's sad.
Joe: Leonardo DiCaprio did not address this issue. So, should we address it now, or—
Pam: Well he's a huge animal rights activist, isn't he?
Joe: Yeah! [Editor's note: Pretty much! "Environmentalist" is probably the better term, but of course that'll have positive effects for animals.] So he probably felt bad. But he has never made a statement about it. So should we talk about it now? What's your opinion, Ant? Should this chimp not be able to socialize with other chimps?
Pam: Should it?!
Joe: [laughter] It's a leading question.
Pam: Did he get paid?
Joe: I'm sure his handler got paid.
Ant: ...Are you really asking me this?
[laughter]
Joe: Yes! On the record!
Ant: On the record, I want to talk about how awesome this movie is.
Joe: We're getting to that. Organically, the subject of this monkey was brought up, so I want to know if you have anything to say about it.
Ant: I'm very close-minded when it comes to animal—I don't want to say "animal rights," but just the way animals are treated, I'm not cultured in it.
Joe: You're probably thinking more along the lines of, like, veganism. Like, "these granola-crunchers!"
Ant: I love all animals. But at the same time, I'm 208 pounds of all red meat. [Editor's note: No scale was available to attest to the accuracy of this statement.] I'd be a hypocrite if I said, "Don't kill the cows!"
Joe: Well, they didn't kill the chimp. They just forced it to roller-skate.
Ant: We all have psychological damage.
Pam: Are they saying that any animal you train to do that is going to have psychological damage?
Joe: I guess? The movie said, at the end, "No animals were harmed in the making of this film."
Pam: Well, no animals were harmed.
Joe: According to animal rights activists, the chimp was harmed.
Pam: I'm sure there were other rights groups that have problems with this movie.
Joe: I'll tell you who else had a problem with this movie—the U.S. Justice System. If we're talking about art reflecting life. The producing company, Red Granite Films, that funneled money into this movie, was just, a couple years ago, indicted for money laundering. It's alleged that this movie, which is about money laundering, was made with money that was itself laundered.
Ant: That's awesome.
Pam: It definitely gives you some ideas about how you could get rich illegally.
Ant: The thing that I like most about this movie is that you have this guy, Jordan Belfort, who has this story to tell. You can have movies... just for instance, The Passion of the Christ. No one knows, what the hell actually happened. But then there are other movies, like Bohemian Rhapsody, for instance, where you have testimonials about what actually happened.
Pam: A true story.
Ant: Right! It's gives testament to what actually happened, and it gives truth to the movie.
Joe: And this is a good thing, you're saying.
Ant: Yeah.
Joe: And you're using Bohemian Rhapsody as your example of a good movie?!
Pam: That movie... it was inaccurate, wasn't it? And Freddy Mercury is dead.
Joe: And also, fuck that movie?
Pam: And also, were his teeth really that big?! [laughter]
Ant: I mean... you guys can say what you want, but you had Brian May, and Roger Taylor, and John Deacon, who are all still alive—
Joe: We're not getting into a Queen argument right now.
Ant: I'm just saying, they were a testament to what really happened. They worked with producers—
Joe: I disagree. They are going to make themselves look good. They're going to wash out all the bad stuff. Though... I guess Jordan Belfort didn't do that? Do you think Jordan Belfort was the villain in this?
Pam: Anti-hero. I feel like we've talked about this so much in these interviews.
Joe: But this is an extreme version of this question.
Ant: Scorsese definitely made it known that Jordan just didn't give a fuck. And I'll say the word "fuck"! Jordan Belfort... it's funny, because I see myself, not as Jordan Belfort, but as this young guy, working in an industry, wanting to be at the top of the industry. There were no limits for him. He would do whatever it took to get there. Part of me really admired that.
Joe: Yeah?
Pam: Can I ask—who would be considered more of the villain, him or the FBI guy?
Joe: Kyle Chandler.
Ant: I'm going to tell you something—one of my favorite TV shows of all time is Friday Night Lights, so the fact that I have to see Coach in this movie pisses me off.
Pam: As the villain?
Ant: Yes.
Pam: So the FBI guy is the villain?!
Ant: The FBI is the villain.
Pam: Jordan Belfort was breaking so many laws and doing so many illegal things.
Joe: Have you sat down and questioned the fact that you consider this criminal a hero?
Ant: No.
Joe: Consider it now.
Ant: I've never really thought about it, Joe.
Joe: Consider it now. What do you think that says about you—not you specifically, you in general, the general populace—that we watch these movies, and we empathize with these devious shitbags?
Pam: We root for them.
Joe: Yeah! Jordan's downfalls are my downfalls when I'm watching the movie. But he is a shitbag.
Ant: Drugs? [laughter]
Joe: No! His ups and downs. When he reaches his lowest point, I empathize with him. What does that say about us an audience that we can watch this terrible person, and say, "this is someone that I'm rooting for"?
Ant: Can I ask you a follow-up question?
Joe: Why not.
Ant: What makes you think he's a shitty person?
Joe: He defrauded a lot of people for a lot of money, and was indicted and prosecuted for his crimes.
Pam: He took a lot of money from blue-collar working people.
Joe: Think about that scene where he turned a corner and said "This is what we're going to do to make a lot of money," when they're in his garage, and he's like, "I want you to invest six thousand dollars of his money, and you're not going to regret it!" But the whole time he's talking on the phone, he's holding his middle finger up, like, "Fuck this guy." He doesn't care about this person. Literally just wants to take his money. Terrible person. He's a terrible person! You can't argue.
Pam: I know he's a real person, but if he was someone on the news right now, and it was like someone who was being indicted for stealing all this money, we'd be like, "Fuck that guy." But we see his story, and we root for him a little more.
Joe: During the movie.
Pam: But if we saw this in real life...
Joe: Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to get to the root of it. Because that's true, what does that say about us?
Pam: We like a good story.
Joe: Is that all it is, Ant?
Ant: I'm not in the position... The reason I like Jordan Belfort is because he was a guy in his twenties who just wanted to make it on Wall Street—
Joe: But I'm going to call you out on that, and say that's not true. That's not all he wanted to do. He wanted to defraud people, and steal their money.
Pam: And he did, successfully.
Ant: That wasn't his goal at the beginning. When he passed his Series 7—which is what you need to sell stocks—he didn't say "I want to defraud everybody." He didn't think that.
Pam: He started out as a straight arrow. He did.
Joe: Usually villains don't outright state their nefarious goals.
Pam: Once he started making money, he became hungry for it, and was like, "I could get more money if..."
Ant: It comes down to greed.
Joe: Okay, right. He's a greedy person.
Pam: You can't root for him just based on how he was before he became a criminal.
Joe: Right. There's no excuse for his actions.
Pam: Everyone is an innocent kid at one point in their lives—
Ant: Do you always agree with Joe?
Pam: No, I don't!
Joe: Very rarely does she agree with me.
Ant: I'm feeling like I'm being double-teamed right now.
Joe: I'm not dumping on you. I just want you to self-reflect. What does that say about you—personally, and in general—that we can look at this person, in this narrow film version of this person, who was clearly shitty, clearly committed crimes, clearly was an immoral person. What does that say that we can have any type of empathy for him whatsoever?
Ant: ...I feel like five minutes wouldn't be enough self-reflection to think about this.
[laughter]
Joe: Well, okay, let me ask you this. How could you possibly watch this movie and not think about that?! Or am I the crazy one?!
Ant: No, you're not, Joe. The reason I love this movie is that I'm very money-motivated—
Joe: But are you following Jordan's example, though?
Ant: I mean... I'm not robbing people.
Joe: So no! No one could possibly follow his example.
Ant: That's not the reason that I love this movie.
Joe: We're circling to that. Do you feel like this movie glorifies Jordan's persona, and his actions?
Ant: I think, when the movie was made, Scorsese consulted with Jordan, and Jordan wanted this story to be told.
Pam: It was based on his autobiography, right?
Ant: Yeah. So I think he wanted this story to be told, and I think he was, in a way, repenting.
Joe: See, I disagree. I don't think there's anything about this movie that says "This person flew too close to the sun, and was burned down."
Pam: I mean, he did lose everything.
Joe: But at the end of the movie, he's the same old person! Out of jail, and teaching people to do nefarious shit.
Pam: He was just teaching people sales, wasn't he? He wasn't teaching people illegal things.
Joe: Okay, so I wrote down a quote, Leonardo DiCaprio. People had made the argument that I am now, when the movie came out, that "you're condoning this behavior."
Pam: That Leonardo DiCaprio was condoning it?
Joe: That the movie itself was condoning this shitty behavior. There's shitty behavior in the movie, and they said that the movie didn't do enough to show that it was "bad" behavior. Leonardo DiCaprio said, and I quote, "We're not condoning this behavior, we're indicting it." What exactly did the movie do to "indict" this behavior? Because I didn't see anything in the movie that indicted this behavior.
Pam: Well, it was a true story, so they couldn't say that he went to prison for the rest of his life.
Joe: I'm not saying that Scorsese or Leo or whoever should have lied about it or falsified anything. I'm saying that there was a true story about a shit person who did bad things. Is this movie trying to say that these things are wrong? And if so, what exactly about the movie says that it wrong? Because I didn't see anything.
Ant: I don't think he was a shit person.
Joe: I don't agree with that.
Pam: He was a complete mess by the end of the movie. He drove his four-year-old daughter—he probably gave her a concussion.
Joe: Oh man.
Pam: He was a horrible person, and it definitely showed that. Just because he didn't go to jail for the rest of his life, doesn't mean that he wasn't falling apart.
Joe: Okay, but to bring it back to the scene you [Pam] just mentioned, with the daughter in the car. That whole scene... I saw in the daughter's face the same face that Willow would make if she was scared. That was a gut punch to me. We watched it in 2015, and that was the difference seeing it in 2019, seeing that face, and saying, "Holy shit, this is a four-year-old."
Pam: That was the climax of him being a shitty person. He lost his first wife. He lost that life that he had. He lost his second wife. He lost his kids. He lost all his money that he had. He lost his house. I think it was definitely an indictment. And because he came out of jail and was teaching at the end, there's something to say about being a reformed sinner.
Joe: Do you think he was?
Pam: I think he was reformed.
Joe: I disagree with that, but I'm not trying to be an asshole in this argument. But, I don't think that teaching other people what you used to do, and labeling it as "successful"—like, he came out on stage to the announcement, "Successful businessman, Jordan Belfast!"
Pam and Ant: Belfort.
Joe: To me, that's perpetuating the evil. In my opinion.
Pam: ...Go ahead, Ant.
Ant: You have these role models that—
Joe: Jordan Belfort can't be your role model!
Ant: Can I say something?!
Joe: Sure.
Ant: I'm a huge Jersey Shore fan.
Joe: [laughter] Yes! That's what we want to talk about! Favorite TV show of all time!
Ant: No, it's reality TV, but ya know what? Everyone on that show is normal people, just like us, who have... they got lucky. Mike "The Situation," I don't know how much you know about the show—
Joe: A lot. [Editor's note: And I wholeheartedly disagree that the appeal of Jersey Shore is that they are "normal people." Just the opposite, in fact. I wrote about it a little bit in the past. I also wrote a Collegian article about it at some point, but I can't seem to find that one. But trust me, this isn't a show I take lightly!!!]
Ant: —but back in 2009, 2010, he was a fucking asshole! He was the worst character out of them all. [Editor's note: It would be shameful not to bring up here that Sammy was definitively the worst character and human being on that show. Though, with Ronnie's recent domestic violence concerns, I suppose that's up for debate.] And today, ten years later, he's the one you wanna see. He just got out of jail for tax evasion. I don't think he's a bad person. I just think that money sometimes...
Joe: Look, man, who am I to say who's a bad person and who's a good person?
Ant: People do what they think they can get away with.
Joe: But that doesn't make it right though.
Ant: It doesn't.
Joe: And look, there's a difference between "This is a story about a bad person who got his comeuppance," and "This is a story about a bad person who I look up to." There's a big difference! Right?
Ant: Are you asking me a question here?
Joe: Do you agree?
Ant: ...We're gonna circle around this.
Joe: No, we're not circling, we're hitting it on the head.
Ant: I'm saying the movie in general.
Pam: Can I say one thing?
Joe: Please.
Pam: I think you can't look at it like he's all good or he's all bad. In the end, he came out, he was "reformed." Not that you think he was. What about the scene where he was talking about the one woman in the company—
Ant: "Shave her fucking head!!"
Pam: No!! Because I'm talking about good qualities for him. Single mom who was behind on her rent, or whatever, and she asked if she could get her check in advance. And he gave her more than she asked for. He took care of his employees. He was a good leader! So I don't think you can completely say that he was all good or all bad.
Joe: Okay.
Pam: I guess you can still look up to him for some of his qualities, but not the whole picture.
Joe: Speaking in general here, I think it's dangerous portrays these negative actions, and doesn't portray them as actions that have consequences. I guess technically there are consequences, with jail and whatnot. But the overall themes and tones of the movie didn't suggest that what he was doing was wrong. I don't know.
Ant: I disagree.
Joe: That's fair. I want to get your opinion on it.
Ant: He obviously was facing tons of prison time.
Joe: Only three years.
Ant: But I also think that a cause of concern was all the money he was going to lose.
Joe: Good!
Ant: Okay. [laughter]
Joe: And look, I want to state on the record that this is all okay, but it's entertainment. It's a movie. Right? I don't want to be the National Catholic Reporter and indict this movie personally. I want it stated on the record that that's not my overall opinion of the movie.
Ant: You liked the movie.
Joe: I liked the movie. I said that at the beginning, that there was going to be negative things I was going to say about it. I don't want to look at this movie and say it's a "bad movie" because of the positive or negative portrayal of the characters. I enjoyed this movie because it's entertainment. But the overall question that I'm trying to gradually get to is—this is your favorite movie. You chose this movie, despite these flaws that I'm bringing up, and despite the fact that this is a movie that condones immoral behavior. That's okay because it's entertainment, but what does that say that you chose this as your favorite movie? What does that say about you?
Ant: By you asking this question, I feel like it's me having to come out and explain why it's my favorite movie.
Joe: Fine. Go ahead. Why not?
Ant: We all grew up similarly. Northeast Philly. I don't know about you, but the sky's the limit for me. And you have this guy, Jordan Belfort, who wants to make a shitload of money on Wall Street, and he'll do whatever he can to get there. And although I don't condone a lot of his actions, I admire his drive. I work in a similar industry, in insurance, and—I'm not even kidding, put this on the record—my friends used to call me "The Wolf of Walnut Street."
[laughter]
Pam: That's a great nickname.
Ant: While I don't condone a lot of his actions, I condone his drive, the way he sells, the way he talks to people, he's very personable.
Pam: He was definitely an amazing salesperson.
Joe: Can't deny that.
Ant: I'm essentially sales, and I look up to him as a person who made a shit ton of money. Was it legal? No. But—
Joe: [laughter] That's a great way to describe a criminal.
Ant: A lot of what happened was legit. He could have made millions of dollars legally. He chose not to. He chose not to! But at the same time, you have to admire his drive and his willingness to succeed. I go to work every day, and I want to be better than everyone that's there. When he went into the Investors' Center, he was better than every person in there.
Joe: What, because he could juke the stats?
Ant: What's wrong with that?
Joe: It was criminal behavior!
Ant: I'm talking about his sales.
Joe: Look, you said he was a "personable" person. I think about when they started the company, when he's talking to the person on the phone, and he's being very personable. But he's giving the finger to this person. Literally giving the finger to this person! To me, that's not a personable person.
Ant: But that wasn't his intention.
Joe: Yes it was! He was giving him the finger!
Ant: That wasn't his intention when he got the job.
Pam: His intentions changed.
Joe: Regardless of what he thought when he got the penny stocks job—
Ant: It wasn't his intention to defraud anyone.
Joe: But he did it. Is that your general view of morality? If you don't intend to do something, it's not as bad, even if you do it anyway?
Ant: There's a big time lapse between the day he got hired at Investors' Center, and then when he really started to push these shitty stocks.
Joe: You're talking about when he started pushing shitty stocks on day one of his job?! There was a big time lapse?!
Ant: It wasn't day one.
Joe: Bob's rolling his eyes because he thinks I'm indicting this movie.
Ant: It wasn't day one.
Joe: I already said it was an entertaining movie.
Ant: Joe, it wasn't day one. It wasn't!
Joe: Pam, day one, or no?
Pam: ...It was day one.
[laughter]
Pam: We just watched it.
Ant: I disagree. [Editor's note: As much as people seem to want to these days, you really can't disagree with facts.]
Pam: The thing with the stocks was that they were penny stocks, so he could only get people like you or I, the blue collar workers, to buy them. It was all they could afford.
Joe: He was boning the rubes.
Pam: Then he was getting the billionaires to invest thousands and thousands of dollars in these stocks, so he was defrauding billionaires! How do you feel about that, Joe K***?!
Joe: Pam knows how to turn me around, because of a theme that I usually bring up in these things. "Is this an anti-capitalism movie?"
Pam: [laughter] Oh god.
Joe: Because, look, rich people are terrible.
Bob: I'm not sitting here anymore.
[laughter]
Bob: Every rich person's terrible?! That's stupid.
Joe: Yes! Jeff Bezos could solve world hunger, but instead he sits on billions.
Pam: So would you feel bad if Jordan defrauded Jeff Bezos out of hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Joe: That's what I'm saying, you know how to twist my opinions, Pam. In a good way! So maybe I should self-reflect, and ask if Jordan Belfast was doing a good thing—
Pam: Belfort! You're thinking of Titanic again.
Joe: Right, was Jordan Belfast doing a good thing—
Pam: Belfort!
Ant: If we're gonna talk about this movie... it's Jordan Belfort, dude, c'mon! I'm gonna start calling you Joe Kind! [laughter]
Joe: I guess we're getting off track.
Pam: So do you think he really was evil if he was just defrauding really rich people?
Joe: I think that if you think he was only defrauding rich people, then you are uninformed. No offense.
Pam: No, that was the company! After he started the bigger company, they targeted rich people, and got them to buy, what were they called? "Blue stocks"?
Joe: Fair. I didn't really think about that. I did read a story about the daughter of one of the guys who was defrauded by Jordan Belfast, she took offense to this movie. She was like, "My dad got fucked by the person depicted in this movie." But you're right, maybe her dad was a billionaire, and deserved to get fucked. I don't know. I don't know. I literally didn't think about it until Pam brought it up.
Ant: It's only a three-hour movie.
Joe: I'm not going to back down and say that Jordan Belfast was some type of Robin Hood-type bullshit, because he wasn't. He was a shit person. I refuse to call him a Robin Hood. But I want to state again, for the record, that all this is probably making me seem like a shit person too, like a hypocrite. I'm not a moral person. Who am I to say that Jordan Belfast was a bad person?
Ant: If you call him "Jordan Belfast" one more time... You're doing it on purpose.
[laughter]
Ant: You liked the movie.
Joe: I did!
Ant: So let me ask you, what did you like about Jordan?
Joe: Nothing! There's a difference between liking a character and enjoying art as a depiction of a story.
Ant: Can you [Pam] speak about it?
Pam: Like I said, I liked how he treated his employees. He was good to them.
Joe: What does that say about your husband, that I am unable to see those grey areas? That I'm only able to see black and white? Does that make me a bad person?
Pam: No, we're just different.
Joe: That's a flaw, though, right?
Pam: Maybe.
Joe: I dunno. It's something I'll have to reflect on later. [Editor's note: I was kind of thinking about the Ellen/Bush bullshit from last week when I was editing this section. How uncomfortable the whole "We should show love and respect to everyone" line was to me. My concern—where do we draw the line? If Bush worked really hard as president to prevent me and Pam from getting married, then I probably wouldn't go to a fucking football game with him, honestly. But there are things that transcend homophobia and war crimes... mainly money. Ellen Degeneres and George Bush are two obscenely rich people, of course they'll be friends. But now I'm getting into the capitalism thing again, and I've already embarrassed myself enough in this interview on that subject. Bottom line—I don't need to be less black-and-white-minded, but I need to maybe understand why people think you should be less black-and-white-minded.]
Pam: This doesn't have anything to do with Wolf on Wall Street, but it would be interesting to talk about Three Billboards with you too. Because isn't that the whole point of that movie, that people aren't all bad and aren't all good?
Joe: Yeah, and it beats you over the head with that idea.
Pam: But Jordan Belfort is a good example of that. Because it did show that he had some good in him. He started out good, and his first wife was the voice of that. The mom from How I Met Your Mother. They were making all this money, and she was like, "But are these people ever going to make money off these stocks?" And he was like, "No, but..."
Ant: I know I'm the interviewee, but let me ask you about this. In the movie, they tried to make it more like a comedy—
Joe: And it was! There were a lot of funny parts in there. Okay, Pam, drop your theory about this. Because it was the funniest thing I heard when considering this movie.
Pam: What?
Joe: About why Ant likes this movie.
Pam: Because he's like Donnie.
Ant: Who's like Donnie?
Pam: You!
[laughter]
Pam: You remind me of Donnie!
Joe: The funniest part of this movie is that Pam thought that.
Pam: Just the way you talk... and the way you are.
[laughter]
Joe: Agree or disagree?
Ant: It has to be the weight thing.
[laughter]
Pam: Well, you and Jonah Hill both lost a lot of weight.
Joe: You both have that "former fat-boy" look about you.
Ant: I wasn't fat, I was big-boned.
[laughter]
Pam: He's a funny part of the movie! He's not the straight man. Jonah Hill's a character!
Ant: But I also think they made jokes about how they take quaaludes—
Joe: Oh my god, yeah! The scene where Jordan's trying to get in the car, opening it with his feet. I'm not indicting the movie! It's a great movie! That scene was hilarious!
Ant: In a sense, I'm kind of going against the movie right now—
Joe: We should've done The Sandlot.
Ant: But in that instance, they are kind of condoning this behavior.
Joe: But we can't go back to that discussion.
Pam: They're condoning it, unless you think not being able to walk, and assaulting a flight attendant, is cool. Because it's not! It's makes you look like an asshole.
Ant: But what happened? Nothing happened.
Pam: True. He was rich.
Joe: That's the problem! With the portrayal of the character. Nothing happened.
Ant: We're switching roles right now. That's something that I don't like about this movie. Rich people get away with shit, just because they have money. They buy all these hookers... the funniest part of the movie was when Rob Reiner—
Pam: He was great!
Joe: Amazing.
Ant: —one of the best directors of all time—
Joe: He's probably my favorite person in Hollywood at this point.
Ant: —and you have him yelling at these guys for buying strippers. And Donnie goes, "we won't get appetizers anymore!" [laughter] It's not a life I lead, but I feel like they always had fun.
Joe: Look, man, I hope that if you ever had the means, that you wouldn't live this way. We don't have the means, so it's not a question now.
Ant: It comes down to, what can you get away with?
Joe: For him or for you?
Ant: In general! In society in general.
Joe: That's a bad way of looking at morality.
Ant: I mean, to be honest with you... I feel like society views it that way.
Joe: Then society's fucked, if that's the case.
Ant: That's really what I feel.
Joe: I dunno dude. Okay... do you think it was a good enough movie to deserve an Oscar for Best Picture?
Pam: Did it win?
Joe: It did not. But do you think it deserved it?
Ant: It was one of those movies that was really big when it came out, but you don't hear anything about it now. It's not like Titanic, or Lord of the Rings, cliché movies—
Bob: Yo!
Ant: —that people are still talking about ten years later. This was a movie that was big in its time, and then kind of forgotten about.
Joe: I guess it's pretty interesting, this is one of the most recent movies that I will talk about in this project. 2013? Most movies we talk about are before the 2010s. Did you feel this way when the movie came out? That it was your favorite movie?
Ant: I really got into it, man. I don't think I saw it right when it came out, maybe it was two years later? Nah, I probably saw it when it came out. But, the older I got, the more relevance I saw. 2013, I was in college. I had no money. I couldn't give two shits about anyway. I was drinking Natty Light. I had no idea. The older I got, I started working, and working my way up, I saw more relevance. I watched it from time to time—if it's on Netflix, if it's on TV, I'm gonna watch it—and the older I got, the more relevance I saw. Which really made me a fan of the movie.
Joe: Okay. I don't want to keep going back to this well, but I have to. If the relevance is you seeing your own ambitions in Jordan Belfast—
Ant: If you call him "Jordan Belfast" one more time, Joe, I'm literally going to throw you out the window.
Joe: If you see your own ambitions in him, then... you're wrong. Don't do that. You can't! Is that what it is, or what? We've talked about this for over an hour now—
Ant: You've talked about it for an hour.
Joe: I've yelled into the abyss. But I can't get over the fact that you see Jordan Belfast and you see any good things about him.
Ant: I feel like we're wrapping up here. There are qualities in Jordan that I saw in myself.
Joe: I'm saying that if you see yourself in Jordan, then you're fucked.
Ant: Do I want to be Jordan Belfort? No, I don't.
Joe: You don't have to be.
Ant: I see him as Jordan Belfort, the dude at the beginning of the movie, who's just some guy who wants to make money, so he went to Wall Street—
Joe: You're describing the origin story of donald trump!
Ant: That's fine.
Joe: No, it's not fine! Stop.
Bob: Ant, you're not allowed to be rich.
Ant: This is not a political debate.
Bob: It's against the law.
Joe: It should be against the law!
Ant: I voted for trump. I like trump.
[General outcry from the room, mainly out of the fear that this will start a whole new tangent]
Ant: We're not talking about it.
Joe: Oh, we're talking about it.
Ant: No, this is about the movie.
Shane: Don't bring it up if you don't wanna talk about it.
Ant: I just hate Joe! If he calls him "Jordan Belfast" one more time, I'm gonna go crazy! He's a real person!
Joe: Fuck that guy! I don't care about the real person. I'll call him a wrong name. Who the fuck is he?
Ant: No, Joe, I admire this young guy, at the beginning of the movie, all he wants to do is make a shitload of money. That's the American dream, is to be rich.
Joe: And that's what makes our country fucked.
Ant: That's fine! Well, it's not fine. What's wrong with wanting to be rich?
Joe: What's wrong with stealing money?! In order to become rich?
Ant: That wasn't the question. Why is it wrong with being rich?
Joe: I'm telling you the reason! The reason that it is wrong for him to be rich is that he got rich by being a criminal! And stole money! That's what was wrong! In a hypothetical situation, if Scorsese made a movie about an upstanding moral person that made money by pulling himself up by his bootstraps, then fine! We'll talk about that movie then!
Ant: Can we kill Joe?
Joe: But this is a movie about a criminal! Who stole money!
Ant: Can we kill Joe?
Bri: It might put a little damper on the weekend.
Mom: What is he yelling about?
Bob: Ant said the "t" word.
Mom: The baby is sleeping!
Joe: She's used to me yelling about capitalism. [laughter] If there is a person that makes billions of dollars from being a moral person, then they also have a moral responsibility to share the wealth.
Ant: We already talked about this Joe. He got greedy.
Joe: Yes, he got greedy. He saw an opportunity to make money. Even though it was illegal. He saw the opportunity, and he took it. And that's what makes him a shitty person. You can't deny that.
Bob: Not all rich people are shitty.
Joe: I'm not making that statement. Bill Gates donated 35 billion dollars last year. Does that make him a bad person? Probably not. But he's still a billionaire—
Bob: So what do you want him to do? Give away all his money?
Joe: I want our government to properly tax him, and take the amount of money that they should be taking, proportionally, regardless of his moral ambitions, and give it to the people that need it!
Ant: ...
Joe: Anyways, yeah. We pretty much covered everything on my notes, except talking about the Oscars, about how it went 0 for 5 at the Oscars.
Ant: Listen, man. All in all...
Joe: Yeah, give me the "all in all."
Ant: I want people to know why I like this movie.
Joe: Right, because you empathize with a criminal, I get it.
Ant: Can I talk?
[laughter]
Joe: I'm just fucking with you man. I'm sorry.
Ant: No, you're not even listening to me.
Joe: I'm listening. Go ahead. There's a difference between not listening and disagreeing.
Ant: Well you keep calling him "Jordan Belfast," and it's pissing me off.
Joe: I very much disagree with you opinion of this movie, besides the fact that it's a good movie. Because it is.
Ant: We're just very different.
Joe: But isn't it interesting that we can agree that this is a good movie, and yet disagree so much about the details? Does that make me an asshole?
Ant: It makes Scorsese a genius. [laughter]
Joe: Damn, I didn't think about it that way. You're probably right, man! Like, is art "good art" when or because it makes you disagree with people? When it makes you have a visceral, emotional opinions of it? Maybe! And if that's the case, then Scorsese is a genius, you're right.
Ant: I want to say, in summary of all this—and I want your thoughts.
Joe: Please.
Ant: I like this movie because he essentially came from nothing—we all came from Northeast Philly, we came from nothing [Editor's note: I can only speak for myself, but I absolutely did not "come from nothing." Growing up middle class is far from "coming from nothing." I can't speak for Ant, but... clearly this is typical generic middle class justifications for revering the rich and shitting on the poor. OKAY OKAY I'LL STOP.]—and he had the drive to want to be better. He—
Joe: You're so wrong with this. You're so wrong. But go ahead.
Ant: Why am I wrong? My opinion is wrong?
Joe: Yes.
Ant: Can I finish before you make that assumption?
Joe: It's not an assumption. We've talked about it for an hour! I have a basis for this opinion. Continue. "He had drive."
Ant: Obviously, it was based on a true story. From the beginning of the movie—if you didn't know the story—you had no idea going into it that he was going to defraud all these people. You see it as a young guy who goes to Wall Street, meets Matthew McConaughey, whatever the hell his name was, ya know [briefly does the McConaughey war chant], this guy's a huge cokehead and makes a shit ton of money. It's a huge testament to what happens. Wall Street is—I don't know the exact figures—but Wall Street has the highest suicide rate in the country. [Editor's note: The rate of suicide for financial workers is 1.5 times higher than the national average, but not the highest, per this source.] But at that point in the movie, he wasn't defrauding anyone. He literally just wanted to make a name for himself.
Joe: Let the record show that I'm allowing you to talk right now without interrupting.
Ant: I know. He lost opportunity when that company closed, and then he went to Investors' Center, whatever. At that point, that drive to want to be better, he wanted to succeed. It's admirable to me. And I know you disagree.
Joe: 100%
Ant: I know you disagree. But we're also... I know you. I've known you a long time. You're not money-driven.
Joe: And you are.
Ant: I am.
Joe: Even if that means fucking people out of their own money?
Ant: No! Never!
Joe: But that's what Jordan did.
Ant: Am I saying that I condone that behavior? No, I don't. I like it because he was a real person, and he made a lot of shitty choices. But, all in all, he was still a guy trying to make money. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not going to follow in his footsteps and defraud anyone. I admire his drive. He wanted to be rich. What's wrong with wanting to be rich? There's nothing wrong with wanting to be rich.
Joe: I'll say it again. The thing that's wrong with being rich is doing illegal and immoral things to get there.
Ant: I mean, I get it. But at the beginning of the movie—
Joe: Dude, we could talk about this for three more hours.
[Unknown member of the peanut gallery]: Please don't!
[laughter]
Ant: But at the beginning of the movie, did you think that he was a bad person?
Joe: I don't give a fuck about origin stories, man. Like, the person that he is is not the person that he was. He is a shit person. That's like, "Oh man, teenage Hitler was a great art aficionado! He has a great origin story! Wow!" Does that change the fact that he murdered 50 million people?
Ant: Money changes people, Joe. Even now, I have friends that I grew up with from Lawncrest. I got a buddy who's a lawyer, and probably makes three or four hundred K a year. Has he forgotten where he's come from? Absolutely.
Joe: I don't give a fuck where he comes from, to be honest.
Ant: Money changes people. There's no doubt about it. I agree with you a lot about this movie.
Joe: Whatever man. Let's not... c'mon. Let's wrap it. It's not... people that are still reading this right now are tightening the noose.
Ant: Can we end on a good note?
Joe: Please! Let's talk about it like—Did you appreciate it as art? I did! It's great!
Ant: Joe... I always agree with you on a lot of things.
Joe: [laughter] Right.
Ant: That's not something that many people can say, with you. But, we're just two different people. We're two totally opposite people.
Joe: He's why we've been arguing about this for an hour. I see you as a better person than you're portraying yourself as right now. I don't think you're a Jordan. I think you're better than that.
Ant: I don't think I'm a Jordan either!
Joe: I think you're a better person than the type of person that would sympathize with Jordan Belfast.
Ant: For the record, I'm not condoning this behavior, at all.
Joe: That's what I take issue with, when you sound like you are.
Bri: He admires his drive.
Ant: Thank you! She was gone the whole interview.
Bri: Not the way that he utilizes that drive.
Ant: Thank you!
Joe: We're going to agree to disagree, I guess. Because I don't admire his drive. I don't admire his drive at all.
Ant: In summary, I admire him because he wanted to be better. He wanted a better life for himself. Yes, he obtained those goals in illegal ways. But you have to admire the drive to want to be better. The way I grew up, I wanted more than what I was given. It's... it's a movie, Joe. It's a movie.
Joe: Right. I'll say it as many times as I have to. As negative as I have been in this interview, I really liked the movie.
Ant: What do you like about the movie?
Joe: I think there is a difference between—and maybe this is an indictment of this project in general—but there's a difference between thinking about this from a humanities perspective, and thinking about it as art. If I go to a museum, and there is a painting of, say, I don't know, a child getting raped, as an extreme example. It might be a good painting, right? It might affect me. It might hit me in the chest. I'm not saying that I agree with what is portrayed in the painting, right? Good art affects you in good and bad ways, as long as it affects you strongly. So, when I'm watching Wolf of Wall Street, if I'm sitting there saying, "This is a shit person, and Ant is going to look at him as a role model, and that's gonna piss me off!"—when I'm pissed off, that makes it good art. That makes it good art! That means that this movie achieved its goal of affecting me in an emotional way. Right? Which makes it a great movie! Love this movie. You're convincing me that this is a great movie. You're convincing me that this is a better movie than I thought it was when I watched it. Because it makes me pissed off! It makes me angry! And that's good art. That's good art.
Ant: That's what makes Scorsese Scorsese.
Joe: [laughter] Yeah, fuck Scorsese.
Ant: I think that...
Joe: It made you feel a certain way, right?
Ant: Yeah. And Joe, the reason I like it is because Jordan Belfort is still alive. He has a story to tell.
Joe: Fuck that guy.
Ant: And I like movies like that. I like movies where you can get a true testament about what literally happened. I do think that he was a greedy fuck.
Joe: That's why you hated Lord of the Rings, because it's not a real story. [smirks at Bob]
Ant: Lord of the Rings is one of my favorite movies. But seriously, for the fans—because I know there's going to be fans of this interview—we're just different people.
Joe: Me and you.
Ant: We're not going to view the movie the same. I hope you know where you're coming from. I hope you can see, or can get "why Ant feels this way." Obviously, I have good intentions.
Joe: I'll say it again, I think I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're better than that.
Ant: Okay.
Joe: I do.
Ant: Let's end this.
Joe: I have a high opinion of you as a person.
Ant: Thanks. Let's end this.
Joe: And I don't think you'd be the type of person who would subject himself to the type of nonsense that Jordan Belfast did.
Ant: Who's to say I wouldn't? Who's to say that I wouldn't? If I made a million dollars... I have no idea.
Joe: Maybe I would do it. I don't know. I don't want it to seem like I'm some haughty, fucking moral person.
Ant: Nah, Joe.
Joe: I'm not a good person. I'm not a good person. And... when I see Jordan, and I say that he's a bad person...
Ant: You don't associate me with him.
Joe: Well I don't want to! And whether you realize it or not, you've been making that case, where you are associating yourself with him, and that's what I take offense to. Because you're not! You're not that type of person.
Ant: Do you think, in this interview, that I'm trying to associate myself with him? Because if you do think that, then I'm sorry that we had this interview.
[laughter]
Ant: Because that's not what I was trying to do at all.
Joe: I don't want you to be Jordan.
Ant: I'm not! I'm a Donnie!
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