*Loudly fakes ecstatic anticipation in the prospect of reading yet another Your Favorite Movie interview* "I'll have what she's having."
I've been chilling with Keelan F**** for like two decades now, ever since those Presentation B.V.M. days. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say Keelan is one of my favorite people. She's always optimistic, she has a bubbly personality, she laughs a lot, she's a loyal friend... in other words, Keelan was good company when she was gracious enough to talk with me and Pam about her favorite movie.
And just based on what I know about Keelan, it makes complete and total sense that her favorite movie is a romantic comedy. When Harry Met Sally set the standard for the genre, it seems like, and it was really fun digging into what makes this movie tick.
I've transcribed our lighthearted conversation below with Keelan's permission, lightly edited to account for all the fake orgasms. (Also, the official title of the this movie is When Harry Met Sally..., with the ellipses at the end. Even though I'm usually a stickler for proper punctuation, I just find that annoying for some reason. So just put a mental [sic] in there every time we say the title of the movie, if you want.) Enjoy!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keelan: Great.
Joe: [pause] Do you think men and women can be friends?
Keelan: Wow, that's how we're going to start?
Joe: That's how we're going to start.
Keelan: I have a lot of thoughts and feelings, though, in general. I do. I think they can be friends.
Joe: I mean, we're friends. Do you think Harry brought up any good points about how men and women cannot be good friends?
Keelan: I do, but I don't know if... Harry says they cannot be friends, but I think it's situational to the time in your life. Maybe in that moment, they cannot be friends. But I think the movie proves that there are times that you can be friends, but it depends on where you are in your life at that time.
Joe: I mean, there was a time when they were just friends, in the movie, and that ultimately led to them hooking up. Right?
Keelan: Yes.
Joe: Which was his original point. You can't be friends, you're going to hook up.
Keelan: But it was at that point in their lives. When they were friends, everything was fine.
Joe: True.
Keelan: They were doing separate things. He was dating that baker. She was dating the other guy. They were going through their lives together as friends. And then, another time in their lives came, and something changed. A life event.
Joe: Had they tampered down their own horniness, I guess, they could've remained friends.
Keelan: But would that have been where they were in the lives at that point?
Joe: Fair.
Keelan: What do you think, Pam?
Pam: I don't know. [laughter]
Joe: I kind of connected with the middle timeline, when they were at the airport, and he was explaining the corollary to his original rule, like, "Well, if you're both in a relationship, maybe you can be friends." But then he's like, "Well, no, maybe your partner would start thinking you were hooking up with that friend, even if you weren't, and that would... not be good."
Keelan: Doesn't that show a weakness in that relationship, then?
Joe: I was thinking about it personally...
Keelan: Oh god, here we go.
Pam: Yeah, I'm ready to hear this too.
[laughter]
Joe: In this specific context. So the Philadelphia Naked Bike Ride is tomorrow—
Keelan: Are you... involved in that?
Joe: I would be inclined to do it. The main reason [I won't be] is that that I have a kid and I want to spend as much time as I can with my wife and my kid, on days that neither of us are working. But I was trying to think, hypothetically, who would I invite to go to this with me? What friend could I possibly ask to go with me? It would be weird to ask a dude, like, "Hey, you wanna get naked together?"
Pam: [off-the-record snarky remark]
Joe: Well, okay, but any [girl] who I would be comfortable enough with to ask if they want to go on a naked bike ride with me, Pam would have a problem with it. Maybe not a "problem," but would question—"Why? What, do you want to get naked with this girl? Is that why you're going with her?" Anyone in my life that I think would hypothetical say yes, would also be the type of person that Pam would say, "Why do you want to see her tits?" Even though, I personally, that wouldn't be the reason why I would be going with her, hypothetically, to see her tits. But that's what you would say!
Keelan: But you open Pandora's Box with that.
Joe: But ultimately, I'm saying—circling back—I thought in that particular point that he was trying to make, he was ultimately correct.
Keelan: I agree. I do think that it has a lot to do with the security in your relationship. But I do agree with what you're saying, yeah. He makes a lot of good points.
Joe: And was kind of an asshole, when he was doing it? I think that was kind of the point, in the movie, that—
Keelan: Can I tell you a fun fact?
Joe: Please.
Keelan: I don't know if you know this.. The character of Harry is based off the director, Rob Reiner. The character of Sally is based off of the screenwriter, Nora Ephron. So the more bubbly but high-maintenance, and very strict and stringent, and has her own way of doing things, all based off of her. And all his super dark, asshole stuff is based off of him. The whole point of the movie was supposed to be that someone like that couldn't find love. And then Rob Reiner fell in love, while making the movie. He got married at the end of making the movie.
Pam: He didn't get married to the writer of the movie, did he?
[laughter]
Keelan: No, I think he married a choreographer. [Editor's note: We'll insert here that it was Michele Singer who is his wife, then and still, and she is a photographer. According to some post-interview research, she was the photographer who took the photo of trump that he used for the cover of The Art of the Deal, something which Reiner mockingly states that she has "a lot to atone for."]
Joe: Originally, Harry and Sally were not going to get together, and then Rob Reiner got married and he changed it?
Keelan: Yeah! Well, I think... I don't know if he got married [Editor's note: He did, in 1989, after production of When Harry Met Sally, but two months prior to the movie's release], but I think Rob Reiner finding love kind of opened his eyes to the possibility of finding that, versus the pessimistic side of him, before he found that.
Joe: Would it have been too pessimistic if Harry and Sally had remained friends and not been the "one" for each other?
Pam: Yeah, it would not have been the same movie it is now.
Keelan: It would've gone down a different path. There are other movies like that. Not to compare it to other movies.
Joe: Okay, well let me ask you this, then. I assume you are a big fan of romantic comedy genre?
Keelan: I love them! Of course.
Joe: So what is it about romantic comedies that you typically enjoy?
Keelan: I don't know. I grew up with them? I hate being scared, so those movies are not for me. Horror movies? No thank you. I'll throw up. Or punch someone. [laughter] Dramas, I can get into, but sometimes they are like solving a puzzle... and also sometimes really scary. But I think a romantic comedy gives you the best of all worlds. You're laughing, and there's happiness. Even if it's not something that's happening every day of your life, sometimes a movie can be a good escape. You enjoy those moments.
Joe: Is there a requirement for there to be a happy ending?
Keelan: No. It can be more interesting that way.
Pam: Some of them have really sad endings.
Joe: I mean, I'm clearly not an expert on the genre. What would be a movie I would know that ended sadly?
Keelan: Like, if they don't end up together?
Joe: Sure.
Keelan: My Best Friend's Wedding. They don't end up together in that one.
Joe: What's that, the Adam Sandler one?
Keelan: No, Julia Roberts, Dermot Mulroney...
Joe: What's the Sandler one?
Pam: The Wedding Singer.
Joe: I don't fucking know.
Keelan: Another classic, you gotta watch that one!
Pam: I love Wedding Singer. In the romantic comedy vein, and also the Adam Sandler-grand gesture vein. The huge grand gesture at the end, singing the song that he wrote on the airplane.
Keelan: Much like Harry's grand gesture at the end.
Joe: So let's break down that speech. What's the hook there, that got Sally to realize that he's the one?
Keelan: Well, I feel like you said it. He's this pessimistic guy, and kind of always negative. Like, he always reads the end of the book before reading the rest, in case he dies while reading it! That's so depressing, and so dark. But at the end, he makes this grand gesture. He doesn't know what's going to happen. He has to put all his hope and his faith into this big speech that he makes, and just pray that it gets him what he wants, and it's the most positive thing he does in the whole movie. You don't typically see that in him. So that might be the big shocking grand thing that needs to happen. Because after they sleep together, he was like, "See ya."
Joe: He was uncomfortable, as he warned he would be.
Keelan: So I think that's what does it.
Joe: So I went back into the archives, and apparently on August 25, 2010, I wrote a very short review of When Harry Met Sally. It was part of a group of reviews of movies that I had watched that summer, I guess. So I wrote—
Pam: Wait, so we were dating that summer?
Joe: Yes, and I guess I'm leading up to a point about that, as far as why I don't feel this way anymore. But I wrote: "'You suck, but I love you anyway' is both a summary of what Harry said to Sally in his famous monologue, and also what I think of this movie."
Keelan: Interesting.
Joe: So while I'm certainly not as pessimistic as I was—well, I don't even know if that's pessimistic—but I'm definitely not pessimistic now about the movie. I really enjoyed the movie. I guess the thing that stuck out to me at the time was that Harry is making this big speech, and saying all these negative things about Sally, but somehow twisting them into positives. Like, "I like you because of those negative things"? Not that... I'm not saying it was any less of a grand gesture. He definitely seemed to open up more than he did throughout the rest of the movie. So I guess that was the point?
Pam: Well, I think when you love someone, you love everything about them. Even their shortcomings. He was just highlighting those things to show her that he liked the things that may be perceived as negative.
Joe: The difference to me was, he was saying "I love you because of these things." Maybe if there's something that annoys me that Pam does, I say, "I love you and I want to be with you always, despite these little things that annoy me." Right?
Pam: ...I guess that's the difference between you and Harry.
[laughter]
Joe: I guess. Does that make me a shittier person than Harry?
Keelan: But this whole part has influenced so many other movies.
Joe: Was this the original "grand gesture" type deal?
Keelan: I can't say on the record that I know that for sure. But I feel like it's influence so many other movies, even movies that have come out recently. The Wedding Singer, he's doing his grand gesture, and saying things about her that other people wouldn't necessarily like about her. In Ten Things I Hate About You, "I hate all these things about you," she says in the end, but the thing she hates most is how much she loves him. Even Miley Cyrus has a song, "Seven Things I Hate About You," and the last thing she says is, "I hate that I love you."
Joe: Interesting!
Keelan: It's kind of traveled through pop culture history so well. And they just made that Always Be My Maybe on Netflix—great movie, didn't love it—but it was basically When Harry Met Sally, but today, with Ali Wong. It was another one with a grand gesture at the end, highlighting things that annoy you, but they all make up... things that annoy you about Pam, they all add up to this perfect Pam.
Joe: That's true! I would definitely say that about Pam.
Pam: No, you said you loved me "despite" those things.
Keelan: Can we have the court reporter bring that information bring that back up please? [laughter]
Joe: No, that I love you in total. Despite... no. [laughter] I guess, whether it created the trope or not, it is, as of now, still a romantic comedy trope. And I guess this movie had a few other ones, that are typical of a romantic comedy. There's a scene at the airport, though it wasn't a typical conversation that happens at romantic comedy airports.
Keelan: Well their big confrontation happened not long before they ended up hooking up. One thing they do in this movie that you don't see in other movies like this, is that they hold each other accountable. It seems like everybody else in their lives is doing their own thing, but Harry and Sally call each other out on each other's shit. Sally says to him, "You're just trying to sleep your way through New York to deal with your problems, you need to self-reflect a little bit here." And he's like, "You need to let go a little bit, and be a little looser, and more wild." Trying to address those areas that they may not love about each... but then they do love them about each other.
Joe: And I definitely felt like that was the most unique part about this movie, versus other romantic comedies, in that there wasn't an "easily solved misunderstand," like, "Oh, I thought you were somebody else" or, like, an "obstacle significant other," like, "She was dating a jackass at the time, and he pined for her and tried to steal her away." There wasn't anything like that! They were just dealing with their own neuroses.
Pam: Right, themselves, and their own barriers.
Joe: I thought that was pretty cool. And the actors played it very well.
Keelan: There's a huge age gap between them in the movie.
Joe: Between Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan?
Keelan: There's like a nine-year age difference. They're both supposed to 22 when the movie starts.
Pam: And how about when it ends?
Keelan: 32, I think? [Editor's note: Not sure if Keelan is referring to an age gap between the two main leads, or an age gap between when the characters met and when they consummated. She's correct, in general, on both counts. Crystal and Ryan are thirteen years apart in age, and the story takes place over the course of about ten or eleven years.]
Pam: Right, because they were supposed to be leaving college. They made them look younger.
Joe: They did their best, with the hairstyles.
Keelan: Oh my god, guys... Sally's hairstyle! We could talk for hours about it.
Joe: Yes, this is why we brought you here today.
Keelan: Obviously, this is all I'm good for, hairstyles. No, you can see her change her hairstyles... but when they end up together, her hair looks awful! She looks like a poodle.
[laughter]
Keelan: She's having a tough time! [Her ex-boyfriend] Joe's getting married, and she got this awful perm. And then she sleeps with Harry, and he's like, "Check ya later, girl." And she's like, "I have terrible hair, here I am."
Pam: But it came out in what, '89?
Keelan: It's their 30th anniversary this year, guys.
Pam: Perms were pretty cool back then...?
Joe: So would it have made it better if Harry, during his big speech, was like, "And I love you, despite your shitty haircut!"?
[laughter]
Pam: Only if that was something they had addressed before. It couldn't be the first time they brought it up.
Keelan: "What?! You're bringing my hair up now?!"
[laughter]
Pam: Yeah, she does have... some notable hairstyles.
Keelan: The weird bowl cut... It's... a lot.
Joe: I know you had mentioned a funny "behind the scenes" story. I know that on February 9, 2019, you shared on Facebook—
Keelan: What the hell?! [laughter]
Pam: He stalked your Facebook.
Keelan: Oh my god, this is wild. What did I do?!
Joe: I only said this specifically to get a reaction out of you. [laughter] But I did Facebook search "keelan f**** harry sally"... a lot of Harry Potter shit came up, because of the "harry" keyword.
Keelan: I like the movies, never read the books.
Joe: But you shared an article about stories behind the famous scenes. What was another one of your favorites? Like, a story that, say, Rob Reiner would tell.
Keelan: You're putting me on the spot, Joe.
Joe: Or just another one that the readers would find interesting.
Keelan: Another big part of the movie that I love is that, as they're going through the different times of their lives, there are breaks in both the seasons—their lives change with the seasons, and in New York, which is beautiful in the background—but they also interview couples throughout the movie. They are all real stories, just told by hired actors. They interviewed people before they made the movie. So every time you hear a story, like, "He rode nine extra floors..."—that was one of the stories, when they rode in the elevator, that's one of my favorite ones. There are so many good ones. Or even, the Asian couple, they were really sweet. I think the more you watch the movie critically, you can see how each of those stories fits into the time in Harry's and Sally's lives, that's following that story.
Joe: Do you ever think of a particular couple when you think of Harry and Sally, like a will-they-won't-they? In your own personal life?
Keelan: What do you mean?
Joe: I dunno, like, what couple in your personal life could be on that couch, telling you their story?
Keelan: I've never thought about that!
Joe: And this isn't a fishing comment. Me and Pam, we weren't anything like that, it wasn't "hate at first sight" or anything. I'm not expecting you to say me and Pam. [laughter] I'm genuinely curious.
Pam: There is a couple that I had in mind when you asked the question.
Keelan: Who?
Pam: Your parents!
Keelan: My parents?
Pam: Wasn't your dad a priest?
Keelan: He was. My dad was a priest, my mom was a teacher. He left the priesthood and asked her out. Then they were married six months later!
Pam: That's a story that would be told on that couch!
Joe: Absolutely. Rob Reiner is salivating right now, trying to get a hold of that story.
Keelan: No, I love the movie, but I know it's not a real movie. I love to celebrate the love, and think about it. But, in real life, would Harry and Sally really be together? I don't know. I don't know if they would find their way back to each other after eleven years. But I like the thought of, if it was supposed to happen for them, then it would happen for them. But I never thought about it in my own personal life. It's just a nice thing.
Pam: But there's always stories like that, when you find out. Like, these people have been married for 30 years, and I didn't know how they met, and you find out the story and are like, "Wow, that's pretty crazy." I feel like especially, nowadays, because everyone's on Tinder. That's how everyone meets, online dating. You don't get those stories anymore.
Keelan: Yeah, we don't live in a romantic comedy world anymore.
Pam: Unfortunately!
Keelan: It sucks! But, so many famous people today are influence by that, and talk about it all the time. Mindy Kaling's a big romantic comedy girl—I love her a lot—but she always talks about how we live in a world where it's just like, "I looked at you for a second, and then..." That's not a good story. That's not a meet cute. I love a good meet cute.
Joe: There's nothing like, "They are dating someone who's clearly an asshole, but they'll overcome that!" Think about it from that dude's perspective, even if he is an asshole. "My wife's cheating on me, and I'm the problem?!" Um... [pause]
Keelan: Can the record show that Joe is now consulting notes?
Pam: Yeah, this is a long pause.
Joe: I guess I wanted to go back and talk about... having watched it ten years ago, you [Pam] said earlier, "Weren't we dating when you watched this?" And I guess that I watched it differently this time because of how our relationship has changed since August 2010? Ya know?
Pam: That was the summer we started dating.
Joe: I guess I'm less pessimistic than I was then.
Pam: You were pessimistic then? I thought you would be like—
Joe: Well, pessimistic about the movie. Because we were still in that golden period. We hadn't fought, we didn't say anything negative to each other—as any typical relationship does during the first year or so.
Pam: [laughter] So we were dating for like a month.
Keelan: Everything that the other one does is perfect.
Joe: Exactly.
Pam: There is no speech at the end, because the person doesn't have any shortcomings!
Joe: Exactly. Hearing Harry saying, "Well, I love you because of all this shit," it was just like—
Keelan: "My Pam is perfect! I've never experienced this!"
Joe: Maybe I couldn't imagine, at that time, thinking negative things and having to overcome them. It was just like, "This is great!"
Pam: ...And now?!
[laughter]
Joe: Now that, ya know, we've gone through some stuff together, and grown together as a couple, a married couple... I now appreciate the realistic push-and-pull of a real relationship as portrayed in this movie.
Keelan: Older and wiser.
Joe: So take that, 2010 Joe! Suck on that! [laughter] Okay, so, let's see... It was only nominated for one Oscar. For Best Original Screenplay. And it lost to...?
Keelan: Oh, I don't know.
Joe: Take a guess.
Pam: I don't even remember, and you told me this earlier today. [laughter] I have baby brain.
Joe: Dead Poet Society.
Pam: Ugh, I love that movie. That's one of my favorites.
Joe: It was interesting to see how many times Nora Ephron gave the credit away to the actors, and Rob Reiner, and whatnot. Like, for instance, "Oh, this wasn't originally in the script, but Billy Crystal suggested that he should be spitting grape seeds." And, that made that scene.
Keelan: It did!
Joe: Apparently Meg Ryan came up with the whole fake orgasm thing, on her own.
Keelan: And she was so nervous about doing it.
Joe: So let's talk about that scene. Definitely the most famous scene.
Keelan: Everyone knows that the woman who says, "I'll have what she's having," the most iconic line in the movie, is Rob Reiner's mom.
Joe: Yeah! I learned that on the IMDB trivia page. [laughter] It was very interesting to learn that, I dunno, the Film Critic's Association or whatever, listed the "Top 100 Movie Quotes of All Time." And that was in there. But it was the only one on there that was delivered in the movie by an untrained actor.
Keelan: Very cool.
Joe: So it's a claim to fame for... Mrs. Reiner.
Pam: It's definitely quotable.
Joe: And Billy Crystal came up with that line! It wasn't Nora Ephron. So... maybe she didn't deserve the Oscar? "What exactly do you do here?"
Keelan: I don't think that she... she's passed away at this point.
Joe: Is she? She's rolling in her grave right now.
Keelan: She wrote a lot of romantic comedies. She did You've Got Mail, and Sleepless in Seattle—great one—
Joe: So Meg Ryan was her muse, I guess?
Keelan: Yeah, Meg Ryan was the "Romantic comedy gal of the '90s."
Pam: I was reading an article about her today—I googled "what happened to meg ryan." [laughter]
Keelan: She cheated on Dennis Quaid, and everyone was like, "Bye girl!" Which, I would too!
Pam: With Russell Crowe?
Keelan: Yes! But, like, how could you cheat on Dennis Quaid? The dad from The Parent Trap?! That hottie! With Russell Crowe?!?
[laughter]
Joe: I was just reading an article about their son, Jack Quaid—
Keelan: Plus One? That movie? Did you see it?
Joe: Well, it was an interview he did on The Today Show, I guess promoting that movie. And they asked him about the orgasm scene. And he said, "I literally just watched it for the first time. I knew my mom was an iconic fake orgasmer, and I just didn't want to watch it."
Keelan: Makes sense.
Joe: But then, apparently on The Today Show, he said he "teared up" when he saw it, because his Mom was such a good actor? And then the Today Show audience cracked up laughing.
[laughter]
Pam: That's a strange response.
Keelan: I'd probably be giggling with them.
Joe: I don't know if I'd particularly want to watch my own mother perform those... noises... But Meg Ryan definitely did a great job!
Keelan: She did. She proved her point.
Joe: So, Rob Reiner had to rile her up a little bit to get her to do that. This was probably in the EW article that you posted on Facebook last February—
Keelan: I didn't get a chance to reread it.
[laughter]
Joe: About how she was a little timid at first, and he convinced her to go all out. It made me think of a story about Rob Reiner directing Stand by Me.
Keelan: Have you seen that?
Joe: Oh, one of my favorites. The iconic scene of the kids running across the bridge train tracks, away from the train, and how they're all, like, crying and really upset that they were going to get hit by a train. And apparently, the child actors weren't able to pull that off, so Rob Reiner took them aside and yelled at them, like, "You fucking kids! You can't do this?! Are you kidding me?!" And they all started crying and stuff, and he was like, "...and go." [laughter]
Pam: That's awesome.
Joe: So I'm curious... if he did something that like for Meg Ryan.
Keelan: ...
Pam: ...
Joe: [laughter]
Pam: Yeah, I saw your face when you said that.
Keelan: She got there.
Pam: She was faking it anyway. That was the point.
Joe: Okay... It's just something to chew on.
Keelan: [laughter] Okay. I'll wrack my brain about it.
Joe: Just think about what kind of director Rob Reiner is... Oh! Do you think that Harry and Sally would make good parents?
Keelan: I was actually just talking to my sister about this.
Joe: Your sister was one of the two people that liked your EW.com Facebook post.
Keelan: I'm thankful for that. [laughter] I think they would make good parents. Because, how they show it in the movie, while there are some outlandish moments, they do balance each other, and call each other on their bullshit. Which you don't always see in romantic comedies. So I'd like to think that, if they did have children, that they were able to bring that with them. You see them go through a lot together, they're there for each other, but then they hit snags... if they got to the point where they got married, they'd figure out how to get through the snags as a successful couple, and then as successful parents. What do you think?
Joe: In talking about them in terms of being parents, I saw more of me and Pam in them in that parent hypothetical, than in them as a couple. Like, Harry would bring a sardonic attitude toward it, and maybe seem like he doesn't care as much for the child's safety, but ultimately does. But then like, Sally picking up the slack, and actually doing the grunt work. And also both loving the child equally in their own ways. I dunno if you see that in us, Pam.
Pam: Yeah, I think that's kind of maybe a common theme with most parents? Like, the "mom role" versus the "dad role." Sally is like... that's her personality. She's the "doer," she's the organized one. Harry is more of the... jokester?
Keelan: And the silent one, maybe? You said Sally's the doer, but she also says, like, "I'm doing this! I'm getting this done! And I'm going to tell you I'm doing this! And if I get upset, I'm going to tell you that I'm upset! I'm not going to lock that in a box somewhere, because I don't have time to lock it away, I'm going to get over it and move on." Which, I feel like, is a common theme with moms. They do it, they wear their hearts on their sleeves, they get everything everything done, and if they get upset along the way, it happens. Maybe sometimes you don't necessarily see that with dads? But it depends on the dad. My own dad's an emotional guy. It depends! ...I love how this interview is so reflective on your marriage, and dating, and you life as parents—
Joe: And our orgasms?
Keelan: We're really hitting all the important topics on this.
Joe: What—and we're getting to the point where you have to explain why this is personally your favorite movie—but first, I want to take a step back, and ask—why was this successful as a movie? What made this a successful movie? Because it was, we can all agree to that.
Keelan: It was.
Joe: But from a non-personal standpoint.
Keelan: I think that it really blended the romance and comedy genres together, and brought it to how we know it today. It brought a sense of realism, that there are going to be issues, and not everyone is perfect, and no one has a completely wonderful "I saw you from across the room and we were meant to be" type thing. You see that a lot in romantic comedies, and that's just not the way the world works. I think that's really shown in this movie. You revisit it, or you're friends, or you're not friends, and things aren't good, but then you can get to a different place. I think that's why it was successful, because people can relate to it.
Joe: I read a lot of retrospectives—I guess people had written a lot for the 30th anniversary of the film—and one of the arguments for why this was successful stated that the script was very narrow in its premise. It didn't try to deal with a whole bunch of issues, it just dealt with—Can men and women be friends? And what happens when they try? And it dealt with that one very specific issue, and just walked us through it.
Keelan: And I feel like that's something people deal with every day, too.
Joe: It's an interesting way of looking at it. I contrast that with other romantic comedies, that were also successful? I guess Love Actually would be the opposite of that. It was not a narrow scope at all. It dealt with a wide variety of different bullshit. But it's still a great movie.
Keelan: Such a great movie.
Pam: I feel like Love Actually took pieces of that movie from When Harry Met Sally. Like Liam Neeson and the little boy, he's trying to help the little boy get the girlfriend, he's like, "And now, we have to do the grand gesture! Because that's what you do in movies!" And that all came from When Harry Met Sally.
Joe: I guess that's a good point. That Love Actually was a little more self-aware of the genre that it was.
Pam: And it's something that you can just assume is going to happen at the end of those movies now. Right?
Joe: Probably!
Keelan: With a lot of the movies that have recently come out on Netflix, they're trying to bring the romantic comedy genre back. The whole genre kind of died off for a while. I'm not sure if that's because it wasn't seen as realistic? Or the movies that were trying to do it just weren't doing a good job? If you think about it, from the early 2000s till now—besides Love Actually—there haven't really been a ton that stand out, like oh-my-gosh-classics. But they're trying to bring them back now and do them a little differently, and use more influence from Nora Ephron, and all those movies. A lot of that's happening too with bringing back TV shows from the '90s, and '80s, and revisiting that whole time period. So because of that, the whole romantic comedy genre is coming back now.
Joe: I haven't seen any of those movies on Netflix yet, like, what was it, All the Boys I've Ever Loved?
Keelan: All the Boys I Loved Before. It had the grand gesture at the end.
Joe: Okay! I was going to say, do they feature the romantic comedy tropes that we were talking about?
Pam: The formula.
Keelan: They do, yeah.
Joe: Is there any inversion of these tropes? Or is it just, like, "we're presenting them to the millennial generation now."
Keelan: I feel like they're just bring them to the millennials. Slowly but surely.
Joe: It's not a bad thing. It is what it is.
Keelan: Yeah.
Joe: So I guess we will then switch focus and ask, why did you personally bring this movie to this interview today?
Keelan: Well, I thought it would be a great topic to discuss—it clearly has been. I was hoping you had never seen it, so—2010 Joe, kick bricks.
Joe: Yeah, fuck you!
Keelan: But I grew up watching it, and I feel like every time I watch it, I kind of look at it differently. The first time I watched it, I was five or six, I had no idea what was going on. I was like, "They're yelling at each other! Her hair is crazy! He loves her!"
Joe: "She sure is ticklish at this diner!"
Keelan: But then when you're a little bit older, "Oh, woah. They're never going to work, they can't be together. Men and women can't be friends." And I feel like there was a time that I thought that, and I was like, "Oh god, no. No way. I agree with Harry." And then I got a little bit older and I was like, "You know what? I think they can. I think maybe, if it's done in a certain way." And then when I most recently watch it, it was, "I think it has more to do with where they're at in their lives." While the movie has stayed the same, I have grown into it more, as I've gotten older. I like that it's a good movie to reflect with. I also... I love the end. You see him running, and he's putting it all out there, it's Christmastime... it just gets ya. Christmas can be depressing as hell! And the music is beautiful, but very sad. So something like this is just so nice to see. All things can be sad, but also exciting, and there are a lot of emotions. I dunno, I love that there's a happy ending for it. Even though he's pessimistic, and a miserable guy... and Sally's, like, crazy. She's completely nuts! I feel like we didn't talk about how nuts she is!
[laughter]
Keelan: And what her upbringing must have been like, that made her that way. And why she got that perm at the end?!
[laughter]
Keelan: But they both have neurotic issues, but they find each other in the end. I feel like a lot of people today are nuts. And we're aware of how nuts we are in today's world. If you can see something like that... there's always going to be a part of me—and yes, it's not realistic—but there's always going to be a part of me that's like... I love that. I love to see that.
Joe: You hope that your own life—meaning "you" in general—has that happy ending.
Keelan: Yeah! Or just like... they have a lot of fun, even when they're friends. And I like to do that too. I like seeing that kind of stuff happen.
Joe: Like talking in funny voices in museums.
Keelan: Or at Sharper Image, singing along to some Oklahoma.
Pam: "Surrey with a Fringe on Top."
Keelan: That's such a good one. [gasps] When his wife shows up!? Oh man, you guys...
Pam: I feel like when you said "It depends on the time in their lives." They could be friends, because I don't think he was over his ex.
Keelan: And she wasn't really over Joe. And you could make an argument about when she was really over Joe, when did that actually happen. Was she over Joe, and the whole thing about him getting engaged—to his secretary, or whatever she was, that random tramp that he ended up marrying—
Joe: [Tony Soprano noise]
Keelan: She was really... she thought that she was really over it. How many times in our lives have we been like, "I'm passed it, it's done, it's over"—
Pam: And then you run into them at a bar.
Keelan: You don't even need a bad perm to get upset then.
Pam: I think it's a nice genre to give into, too. Like, right now I'm read a romance novel, because I'm like... I just wanted something nice.
Keelan: There's so much negativity in the world.
Pam: Something that's lighthearted, and something that I can just enjoy, and not, like, pore over, trying to figure it out. Just at face value, in the end, it's lighthearted.
Keelan: I think that's another part about it. We could sit here and break down why Sally is the way she is, and why Harry is the way he is, and why none of their relationships worked until that point, and will their relationships work together... or you could sit down, and be like, "The world around me is shitty today, so I'll watch this movie, and take it"—like what you said—"take it at face value, and just be happy that there's happiness, just for a little bit." Ya know?
Joe: That definitely seems to be a theme in these interviews. These movies just give you a little hope.
Pam: They restore a little bit of faith in humanity.
Joe: Yeah. Because it's tough, man!
Pam: But I feel like every generation can say that. There's always shitty stuff happening for every generation. Ya know? And people rely on these stories to keep them optimistic.
Keelan: That's why you're not interviewing people about the worst movie they've ever seen. [laughter] That would be rough... one of the worst movies I've ever seen is My Sister's Keeper. I will go on record and say that. It's the opposite of the book. And at the end you're just like, why? Why? Why did I do this to myself? I don't feel that way when I watch When Harry Met Sally.
Pam: It's just a feel-good movie. Sometimes you just want a feel-good movie. Whenever Joe goes out—he doesn't go out that much anymore—
Joe: Yeah, can we state that for the record now?
Keelan: "Joe goes out every night."
Joe: I'm not an absentee father, c'mon.
Pam: I think when you went to the Phillies game with Jim is when I watched Always Be My Maybe. [laughter] I was like, "Ooh, Joe's out tonight, I can watch a romantic comedy on Netflix!"
Joe: So if you wanted someone like me who wasn't sold on the whole romantic comedy genre itself, how would you sell When Harry Met Sally?
Keelan: Well, I think the movie speaks for itself. I don't think I need to sell it to anyone.
Joe: But if I'm asking you to do it now.
Keelan: But if you're asking me to do it now fine Joe! No, I would try to sell them on the fact that it is somewhat more realistic than another romantic comedy would be. And if you don't want to sit and fight about whether men and women can be friends, then maybe this isn't the movie for you? But it would definitely get you thinking. I think that's a good part of it too.
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