Welcome back to Your Favorite Movie, where our friends talk about what their favorite movie of all time is, and I often retort "Well then why don't you marry it?"
Today's plague on both our houses is Sean E****. I met him opening weekend at La Salle University freshman year, and over those first two semesters, we became convinced that there had been an egregious fuck up as far as housing was concerned—it probably would've made sense to room together, given our extracurricular drinking. We corrected that mistake two of the next three years (Sean lived in the townhouses Junior Year, and I was banned from the townhouses Junior Year). You count yourself lucky when you keep in touch with college friends, so I'm lucky that Sean is still around.
With quite the Sean-esque pick, his favorite movie is Romeo + Juliet, the 1996 adderall-fueled Baz Luhrmann production. With such a pick, it's tough not to talk a lot about the source material as well, and we did our best with that, despite neither having read it since high school.
Me and Sean and YFM alum Sunny (tit-for-tat after Sean helped out with Oldboy) got together before Boys Book Club last week at a South Philly coffee shop, and talked some bullshit. Below is our conversation, transcribed with permission, and edited slightly to account for the very loud cappuccino machine and ravenous gentrified Saturday morning coffee shop crowd noise.
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[laughter]
Sean: Um... I don't know how to answer that question.
Joe: And I guess we should clarify, because there's the play, and there's the movie. And it's the same words being spoken or written.
Sunny: Can I suggest we say "Romeo plus Juliet"?
Joe: [laughter] That's where we should start. Why the plus sign?
Sean: I don't know. It was probably just a stylistic choice by Baz Luhrmann. You'd probably have to talk with him.
Joe: But suppose you are Baz Luhrmann, and you are making a choice about punctuation. Why choose the plus sign over the ampersand?
Sean: I actually don't think it's necessarily... so obviously it's a plus sign to signify Romeo "and" Juliet. But I think it's a type of cross too. The movie is chock full of Catholic imagery. So that's probably the reason behind it, if I had to guess.
Joe: Romeo is wearing the cross necklace.
Sean: Yup.
Joe: That's not in the play, right? I haven't read the play in a while. He's not wearing a cross necklace?
Sean: I haven't read the play in a while either.
Sunny: It's not specified.
Joe: Not specified what type of necklace?
Sean: Not specified at all. I don't remember any clothing being specified.
Joe: Is there religious imagery in the play? Or is that Baz Luhrmann?
Sean: Yeah. The whole thing with Romeo and Juliet is that they have to go to "shrift," which is confession. So there's religious imagery, but Baz Luhrmann takes that aspect and kind of intensifies it. He mixes it with a kind of Central or South American type feel. That's how they approach Roman Catholicism.
Joe: Why, though? Was that just a choice that he made, or was there a purpose behind the religious imagery? It's just cool for Tybalt to have Mother Mary imagery on his gun?
Sunny: It's rad as hell!
Sean: There is an aspect of... the way it was supposed to be represented is that there are two warring mafia families, with legitimate business fronts. It's like what you see in Italy, especially in Southern Italy, in Naples. The mafioso there will use very explicit imagery, whether it's in tattoos or other symbols. He took that theme, and enhanced it, for visual purposes. That's kind of Baz Luhrmann's whole thing in movies.
Joe: Are you saying this as a religious man?
Sean: I'm saying this as a... [laughter] I don't know if I could call myself a religious man. I haven't been to Church since Christmas.
Joe: [to Sunny] Sean was the officiant at my and Pam's wedding. We picked him because he was very religious. [laughter]
Sunny: So you're backpedaling now?
Sean: I'm not backpedaling.
Joe: Father Sean is backpedaling! Or Friar Sean, I guess I should say.
Sean: Let's just say that I'm still a religious person. I'm just not as good as a Catholic as I used to be.
Joe: So you try.
Sean: My wife would debate that. [laughter]
Sunny: What does that actually mean to you? What does "being a good Catholic" mean?
Sean: That's a good question. You can look at "being a good Catholic" as essentially following a lot of the more popular Catholic dogma. Following the religious traditions by going to Church, going to confession often. Following some of the Church's more popular teachings, like "no sex before marriage." With Pope Francis, there's a bit more sense of "openness" with same-sex relationships, but I suppose in order to "be a good Catholic," you'd have some stronger views on that. Some more negative thoughts on that than I personally do. I'm a big LGBTQ supporter, so the Church needs to catch up on that one. Or, you can kind of take another stance on what it means to be a good Catholic, through a kind of social justice, "living the gospels" lens. If you're living the gospel in a Catholic manner, then you are "being a good Catholic," which is more what I try to do.
Joe: Do you think Romeo and Juliet tried to be "good Catholics"? I guess they did, right? They didn't fuck before getting married.
Sean: True, they waited.
Joe: [laughter] They waited all night.
Sean: That's a point I wanted to mention. Romeo wanted to sleep with Rosaline, and Rosaline was like, "No, no, we're not sleeping together." So he's puppy dog heartsick.
Sunny: He got over it real fast, too.
Sean: But then he meets Juliet, and they're in the pool, and he's like, "You're just going to leave me like this?" And Juliet's like, "What satisfaction do you hope for tonight?" She's kind of giving him that look of, "You know we're not fucking." So then he proposes marriage. A solution to this entire thing would've just been the two of them fucking. Then they wouldn't've had to eventually kill themselves.
Sunny: ...A fresh, new take on Romeo and Juliet.
[laughter]
Sean: I've never personally—even when I was a young kid, sitting in CCD—when they said "you can't have sex before marriage," it was something that has just never made sense to me, personally.
Joe: But you did wait till marriage.
[laughter]
Sean: Yes.
Joe: As someone who has slept in the top bunk while Sean slept in the bottom bunk, I can attest that Sean did not wait. No, but I guess that's one of the big questions here, for the play and for the movie. Was this a realistic depiction of what love could be? I mean, I know that's not a new question for Romeo and Juliet. That's a typical teenage dismissal in high school English class. What are you thoughts? Is their story feasible?
Sean: So, I'm going to give two answers. The first is that there are definitely elements that are feasible for two people meeting, and then instantly falling for each other, and feeling that sort of raw passion that draws to one another. Definitely feasible. There are elements of two people falling in love, and their families having issues. Maybe not necessarily to that degree, the warring families and the blood feuds. But one of my good friends from high school, David, he really liked this girl across the street, Megan. But Megan's dad was a racist... and David was black. So it didn't really work out so well. And David's parents didn't really like them, because they were racist. But they had a thing for a while, off-and-on, and we used to joke that it was a Romeo and Juliet-type thing. There was never any gunfire or anything. [laughter]
Joe: And their relationship was never meant to "solve" the problems between families.
Sean: And that's the other part of my answer. I don't think it's necessarily supposed to be realistic. I've never really thought about it as being realistic. One of the themes throughout the movie and the play is that people are acting on one emotion—and there's self-interest in that emotion—at a time. They're all a bunch of "tinkerbells." Romeo and Juliet are both just acting on this passion. Juliet even says "This is so quick. This is ridiculous." But then it's like, "Fuck it. Whatever. Let's dive in." Father Lawrence sees that, and he criticizes Romeo for it—"What about Rosaline? You clearly weren't in love with her." Like: "A young man's love lies not in their hearts, but in their eyes." There's a moment too where he looks Romeo up and down, and he recognizes this fact, that it's really quick. But then he thinks, in his own self-interest, as a priest, as someone who wants to bring peace to the city, he's like, "Oh, this is something I can use."
Joe: Right, right.
Sean: The nurse, too. Juliet''s nurse doesn't necessarily think it's such a good idea. Moments earlier, she was promoting a marriage to Paris, because he's such a good looking dude. But then the nurse is like, "ooh, this is kind of fun, right?" It's a fun little romantic tryst, let me get in on it.
Joe: That was her self-interest? The drama? [laughter]
Sean: At least in the movie. I suppose they could've developed it a little better. But it's just a lot of people giving these two young kids really bad advice. And then these two young kids doing really impulsive things.
Joe: I guess that's a key to it, to remember that they are pretty young. Teenagers—I know Leo was 21 when they filmed it, but I think they are supposed to be teens.
Sean: Claire Danes was seventeen, but she's supposed to be playing a fourteen-year-old.
Joe: Okay, they specifically say it?
Sean: Yeah. The original actress hired was Natalie Portman, who was fourteen, but when they started filming the scenes with Leonardo DiCaprio, they thought it looked like he was molesting her.
Sunny: Like, "Yeah, we gotta get a new one..."
Joe: I looked up a picture of Natalie Portman when she was fourteen, and she did look young. Like, uncomfortably young.
Sean: Yup. It's a seven year difference. If I was Leonardo DiCaprio in that situation, I would've been very uncomfortable doing those scenes.
Joe: It might've even been uncomfortable with a seventeen-year-old, right? She's still underage.
Sean: Definitely.
Sunny: Not in Australia.
Joe: Oh, is that where they filmed this?
Sunny: No, I think they filmed it in Mexico City. Definitely not underage in Mexico City. [laughter]
Joe: But as thirty-year-olds... I mean, I'm speaking to a married man, so it might be besides the point. How about—did you feel that way when you met Wendy? That "knowing" that they felt?
Sean: When I met Wendy, it was the first day of classes Junior Year—so she was a sophomore—and I walked into Dr. Robison's Intermediate Microeconomics Theory class, so there were only six to eight people in this class. I walked in—and I had never met Wendy before—and I saw her sitting there. I had this long, gross beard at the time—
Joe: No! [laughter]
Sean: Completely unkempt. In no way had I ever put any effort into trying to tame the thing. So I walked into the classroom, and, I dunno, I saw Wendy, and my first thought was "Wow." Right? Because the economics department was small. All the econ majors in my year, there were four of us. So to not know somebody, especially in an upper-level economics class, was kind of weird. So the first thing I thought when I saw Wendy was "Oh my god, here's this amazingly beautiful woman." I had become single, after a long relationship, the previous spring, so my second thought was, "Wouldn't it be funny if me and this beautiful girl got married one day?" And my third thought was, "...that's some creepy shit to think."
[laughter]
Sean: About a woman I'd never met! So we get into class, and there was a group in-class project that we had to do that first day. Robison went around, like, "Alright everyone, pick your partner." The first person he pointed to was Wendy, because she was sitting in the front—which, if you know anything about my wife, makes sense—but then she turned around and pointed to me. She picked me, and I was like, "Fuck yeah!"
Joe: That's when you knew she was thinking the same creepy things.
Sunny: She was thinking about that beard in the future.
Joe: But you thought it was creepy because it's weird to think about marriage when you first meet somebody. Right?
Sean: Yeah. But when I was growing up, my dad would always tell the story about when he first met my mom. They were working in a nursing home—and my mom was seventeen, and my dad was 20 or 21—and he saw her, and went to his buddy and said, "See that woman there? I'm going to marry her." The guy was like, "Yeah... okay." It's that idea of "love at first sight." An instant attraction to someone.
Joe: But you don't think your dad's story is creepy.
Sean: Right. I thought my dad's story is incredibly romantic.
Joe: So what's the difference?
Sean: I dunno. Me? [laughter] Different times?
Joe: Did you think that maybe your dad thought it was creepy at the time, but the promise of marriage was fulfilled, so it's not creepy anymore? It's just nice?
Sean: I suppose. That's the thing though. There's lots of thoughts. You can't control what you think. But if you keep it to yourself, it's not necessarily creepy. But if you go around telling people...
Joe: It could be confirmation bias.
Sean: Exactly.
Joe: How many times have people thought that, and then didn't marry that person?
Sean: And then you don't remember those times.
Joe: Right, ten years later you're not telling a story about how you thought you were going to marry the bartender at the corner bar, but then you never went on a date.
Sean: You just always go to the bar and stare at her? [laughter]
Joe: I dunno. Sunny—I'll be honest, I don't know your past romantic history. One of the downfalls of becoming friends with you recently.
Sunny: I guess so.
Joe: You said earlier that you have a female roommate. Are you dating your roommate?
Sunny: No. Oh no. If she is reading this—definitely not.
Sean: "Definitely not" in the sense that you would never date her?
Sunny: ...Yes. [laughter] She'll never read this. But something you said, Sean, about whether it's creepy or not—and maybe this is retroactive confirmation bias—maybe it comes down to... do you know what your wife's first impression of you was? Was it a similar sense? Or was it "here's this gross dude" but later fell in love with you?
Joe: We can assume she thought "this is a gross dude."
Sean: A safe assumption. I mean... I quickly shaved after that class. [laughter] I thought, "I should stop being this gross, hairy, sad man, and embrace the nice things in life." Yeah, I dunno. I've tried to get that out of her, what her first impression of me was, but the closest of an answer I've ever gotten from her was—I guess it was a few weeks into the semester—she asked Greg S****, who is a mutual friend of ours, and who had lived the previous year on my and Joe's floor—
Joe: Never wore shoes. Just walked up and down the hallway with socks on. [Editor's note: I am a big fan of Greg S****, but his penchant for walking around in just his socks cannot be denied.]
Sean: Bold choice. But she had asked him if I was single. He had said to her, "I think so." And he thought the two of us would go well together. But... it still took six months to start dating.
Joe: I actually... the day that I met Pam. It was the Masque formal, so we were pregaming at Maeve and Sara's apartment. I was big into giving speeches at the time. Toasts, I guess?
Sunny: Like, impromptu?
Joe: Just, ya know, "I'm going to give a toast to tonight! It's going to be a good night!" That type of thing. The theme of that toast was "A Night of Possibilities." Who knows what's going to happen?
Sunny: Did you prepare these toasts?
Joe: Nah, I would just drink a fair amount, and...
Sean: The ideas would just rush into him.
Joe: Exactly.
Sunny: The muse.
Joe: They were probably a little more sloppy than I imagined they were at the time. But I do know that one of the things I wondered in the toast—besides wondering if Dwyer was going to piss his pants—one of the things I said was "Who knows? Someone might hook up with the person they are going to marry!" And, ya know, I met Pam, and hooked up with her that night.
Sunny: Wow.
Joe: But it's funny too that neither of us actually thought those marriage types of things when we met each other. Obviously, there's an attraction, and I wanted to see her again, but I wasn't like, "I'm going to marry this chick." It was more like, "I absolutely want to see where things go." I dunno... I'm skeptical of the whole idea of "love at first sight," especially as intensely as Romeo and Juliet feel it, anyway.
Sean: So actually... every wedding I've ever officiated, including yours, Joe—and I'm up to four now—I include the line of Father Lawrence, both in the play and the movie, when he's marrying Romeo and Juliet—"Love moderately." I saw that all the time too. I've said it in every wedding ceremony as advice to the couple, because...
Joe: Because Romeo and Juliet did not take that advice?
Sean: They did not take that advice. There's so many people that have that passion in their relationship, especially early on. And that's easy to just dive into, and it can be a lot of fun too. But it's not sustainable. That's the difference between what's called "puppy dog love," that initial passion that two people may have, and then the sustainable, building a relationship with someone.
Joe: In the show Party Down, they called it "crockpot love." [laughter]
Sean: There's a term.
Joe: Okay, so, you read the play first, I guess?
Sean: Nope, I saw the movie first. I believe it was 1998. I was in a Holiday Inn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, on family vacation. It came on the television.
Joe: On MTV?
Sean: Probably not MTV. We weren't allowed to watch MTV. [laughter] But I remember seeing it and being entranced by it. The only reason we were allowed to keep it on was because it was Romeo and Juliet. It was classic literature.
Joe: I guess they missed Mercutio's ass cheek?
Sunny: How old would you have been at the time?
Sean: Nine. But I was just entranced by it.
Joe: Entranced by Mercutio's ass cheek.
Sean: Yup. Nothing else. Everything else was boring.
Joe: But for real, what did you like about it?
Sean: First, there's an element of Baz Luhrmann's imagery that draws you in.
Joe: It was very distinct.
Sean: One of the things I remember too was from the scene where Romeo and Juliet met. You could just sense that passion. Even as a nine-year-old, I was like, "What is that? What is that in life? That's something that I'd like to experience in life."
Joe: The experience of making out in an elevator? [laughter] Or before that?
Sunny: The looking-through-the-aquarium thing?
Sean: Yeah, that. Just that sense of passion for someone. And I found too Mercutio's death scene, when I was nine, it was so... Mercutio, the entire character, the way he's played—in my opinion, it's the best version of Mercutio ever. He's flamboyant. He's entrancing—you can understand why all his friends are drawn to him. But there's also this darkness inside of him, that he doesn't have full control over, and which eventually leads to his own demise. His death is tragic, and full of rage and despair, but is also just... the entire thing is just so poetic. Obviously, I didn't fully grasp all of it when I was nine. But it was something that drew me to the film.
Joe: Shakespeare's words are hard to grasp at any age, I would argue.
Sean: Yeah, so that's actually one of the reasons I like the film so much. I finally read the play in freshman year of high school, and it was just such a slog. It was such a motherfucker to get through.
Joe: I guess you recognized some of the lines from the movie?
Sean: Yeah.
Sunny: "It ruined my favorite movie!"
[laughter]
Sean: It was so difficult to get through. In high school, you read a book, and then you watch the movie about it. But we watched then '60s version of it, and it was so boring.
Joe: Franco Zeffirelli.
Sunny: But there is some Juliet nip stuff in that movie.
Joe: Right, because they were played by adult actors? Wait, maybe that was the '36 version.
Sean: Yeah, in the '36 version it was like 30- and 40-year-olds playing them. [laughter] But so what I really liked about the movie was, I read the book in high school, and I hadn't seen the movie in years. And then it was sophomore year of high school, and there was this big snowstorm. I was thinking about Romeo and Juliet, because we were reading other Shakespeare at the time... I think we were reading Hamlet, and watching the Mel Gibson adaptation. That's such a boring Hamlet too! It's very difficult to take Shakespeare's words, and make them compel you in a modern era. At least for me. But when you sit there in class, and you analyze the words, and you're looking at why he chose certain words, and why he put them in certain phrases, it's just really interesting. He was doing things to make certain points or to make certain statements. So anyway, there was this big snowstorm—and we had been off of school for a couple days at that point, the roads were plowed—my mom had a big Suburban, and I said "Mom, can you take me to Coconuts?"
Joe: I forgot about that store!
Sean: And I was like, "Can I go get this movie?" I told her it was for school. My mom was like, "I'm busy, I'm not driving you."
Joe: Through a snowstorm!
Sean: Through a snowstorm. And it was like a foot or two of snow.
Joe: [laughter] "And we crashed on the way to Coconuts Records!"
Sean: I called Coconuts, and they were open—
Sunny: Coconuts does not close! [laughter]
Sean: I actually put on a full snow suit, like a ski suit, and I walked four and a half miles in the snow to Coconuts. I walked in the door, and the dude looked at me like I was a psychopath. I bought the movie, and then walked back—so a total of nine miles. And I remember I walked in the front door, and my mom was like, "Oh, I didn't know you went outside." [laughter] But I watched it. In my opinion, the way Baz Luhrmann directed it, and the cinematography, it just... it takes Shakespeare's words, and it brings them to life. It makes them entrancing and interesting.
Joe: Almost overly so. It's almost cartoonish at some points, I would argue. It's so over-the-top. And, ya know, it's not necessarily in a bad way.
Sean: That's a common criticism of all his movies, is that they are over-the-top.
Joe: I said something like this for Gladiator too, and I don't know why this kind of stuff bothers me... but that speeding up of the frames? Especially during the party scenes, almost like he hits fast-forward. You know what I'm talking about? When the characters speed up? That was just... a weird choice?
Sean: I think he was trying to capture that feeling that you don't have a sense of time when you're on drugs like ecstasy. Because time moves very slow, and then it moves very quickly.
Joe: That makes sense. I forgot about the ecstasy part, to be honest.
Sunny: One question I have, while we're on this topic—they changed Queen Mab in the story to be ecstasy. He fell in love with Juliet because he was on ecstasy, right?
Sean: Yup.
Sunny: Does this change the movie for you, that he was tripping?
Sean: Well, ya know... ecstasy doesn't last that long.
Joe: How long does ecstasy last?
Sunny: Three to four hours.
Sean: No, I think that's probably part of it, I would argue. One of ecstasy's side effects is that you love anything. You're like, "Suddenly, I love touching this table." It's the best feeling you've ever had.
Joe: So would it makes sense for there to be a part where he was like, "Alright, I'm sober now, and I still feel these things for Juliet"?
Sean: I think that was the next day at the beach, when the nurse came to see him. He was clearly sober by then.
Joe: Are you saying that the nurse was worried that he wasn't?
Sean: The nurse is confronting him, with a sense of "I'm going to kick your ass if you mess with my girl." He was like, "No, no, I'm dead serious. I might have been tripping balls last night, but... they were genuine feelings."
Joe: I guess that's another part of the story we can use to examine our own lives. I know there's been nights when I've been drunk as shit, and making out with somebody, and I felt very differently the next morning. That it would be a legitimate concern.
Sean: I mean, there's been plenty of times I've woken up in general, like, "Oh god." Or, "I hooked up with them again?"
Joe: "You're telling me that was Harold Perrineau in a wig?!"
Sean: But there was a couple times too when I woke up and was like, "Alright, that was sweet. It was an experience."
Joe: But my point is that there is an unrealistic hypothetical shown in this where someone is coming to you saying, "Did you really mean those things last night?" and you have to decide for yourself. Or, maybe it's not unrealistic. Did someone ever knock on your door, like, "Did you really mean what you showed when you hooked up with that girl? Do you really want to marry this woman, or were you drunk as shit?"
Sean: I made a promise to myself in high school, when I saw guys just bullshitting girls so they could hook up with them, saying all kinds of shit. I promised myself that I was never going to be that person. You know what I mean?
Joe: For the record... I hope I wasn't either. I probably phrased this question poorly. If you think I'm an asshole, that's fine.
Sean: As long as I can remember—feel free to disagree with me—I don't think I've ever promised while I was hooking up with them, where I was like, "I really like you," or "I think I'm in love with you." Definitely not "I want to marry you." [laughter] If anything, I would be drunk and tell someone, "I want to hook up with you and never talk to you again, is that cool?" And then the next morning, being like, "I'm sorry I was so cold about that, we can totally be friends."
Joe: You set the record straight before anyone gets the wrong impression, right?
Sean: Yes.
Joe: I suppose that's noble in its own twisted way.
Sean: Yeah... I think that's the best way to describe all that... [laughter]
Joe: Speaking of making out with girls in frat basements, Lamson has a question for you. I'm doing this thing where the previous interviewee has to ask a question of the next interviewee. So Lamson wrote you this question, and I haven't read it yet.
Sean: That's terrifying.
Joe: This isn't as funny as I assumed it was going to be. It says, "What is the thing that you liked the most that you weren't allowed to like, or weren't supposed to like?"
Sean: Like, in the movie?
Joe: I don't know. I cannot clarify it. You just have to answer it.
Sean: Hmm.
Joe: He's probably implying that you got a boner when you saw Mercutio.
Sean: That makes sense. So, okay—and if you want me to take this answer in a different direction, I will—
Joe: Sure. I'll call Lamson.
Sean: One of the things I remember thinking is that Mercutio is such a cool guy. In middle school and high school, when I would watch this movie. In a way, I would kind of want his flamboyance. This was the early 2000s, so it still wasn't fully socially acceptable to be gay, or even appear gay. So there was an element to Mercutio and my... I'll say attraction to his flamboyance and his sense of cool, that I felt like I couldn't actually state outright, because I was afraid that I would be bullied. Not that I ever thought that being gay was anything that was wrong, but I saw plenty of guys in high school who were gay, and were ridiculed and shoved into lockers. There was a consciousness about whether one could... there's also a thought—could society still except such flamboyance in a straight man? Flamboyant, eccentric.
Joe: Like someone into drag.
Sean: Yeah.
Joe: Me and Pam actually talked about this recently, because she's been watching a lot of RuPaul's Drag Race. Like... a lot of it. Like, nine seasons in a month. But, I was telling Pam that I—not that I want to dress in drag, though I have nothing against the idea of it—but that I was jealous of the sense of power that they feel, ya know? That these guys, when they dress up and become women, they feel power. They feel hot. I have never felt that. I guess Mercutio did that way though. Whatever his orientation was, he definitely felt confident. He comes right out of the gate and shows his ass! Because he felt hot!
Sunny: That's why you're like, "This is a cool dude."
Sean: There's the whole point of clothes in general, in the modern world. Clothes are supposed to show the world who you are, and give you confidence. I remember in high school, I was pulled aside by a female friend, and she was like—ya know, because I was a "stylish" individual, into GQ and all that—she was like, "Sean, I just want you to know that I accept you." [laughter] At first I thought it was... I was like, "Oh cool, I accept you too!" [laughter] We're friends! But later it was like... I'm not gay! I just like wearing suits!
Sunny: It's alright, Sean.
Joe: Okay, so we can assume that's what Lamson met. I guess he could also mean "Did you get a boner over a seventeen-year-old?" You probably weren't supposed to do that either!
Sean: Well, I mean, it was fine when I was like thirteen and watching the movie.
Joe: True.
Sean: Because I did! To this day, I think Claire Danes is beautiful.
Joe: Did you watch Homeland?
Sean: Yeah.
Joe: Do you still watch Homeland? It's still on, right?
Sean: It is, and I do. Begrudgingly. It's one of those things where I think I have committed so much to it that I have to finish it.
Joe: Yeah, I dunno. I was out when Brody went out.
Sean: I think that's fair.
Joe: It's kind of interesting considering the career directions of Claire Danes and Leonardo DiCaprio, and how different their paths went after Romeo + Juliet.
Sean: How so?
Joe: Well, not that either one of them is not famous anymore. But DiCaprio is toward the top of the A-list, and Claire Danes is plugging away on Season 8 of Homeland. I wasn't aware of Claire Danes' existence in 1996, but apparently she was the "It Girl"? And that can certainly no longer be said is the case.
Sean: Her and my other childhood crush, Sarah Michelle Gellar.
Joe: And fourteen-year-old Natalie Portman.
Sean: I don't think I discovered Natalie Portman until Star Wars.
Joe: I actually read something—I don't know if it was true—that Claire Danes was in discussion for Titanic instead of Kate Winslet?
Sean: I didn't know that. I feel like that would've been a very different movie.
Joe: She spoke on the subject—I don't know if she was speaking hypothetically, or she was actually offered it—but she said that she didn't want to do it, because she felt that that would've been "redundant." She said, "I just did a grand romantic movie with Leonardo DiCaprio, I don't need to do that again."
Sean: Yeah, I don't think they got along that well on set either.
Joe: I had read that it was hit-or-miss. Leo wanted her for the part, and then they didn't get along, and then it got better as it went along.
Sean: Apparently Leo wanted her for the part because she was the only actress they were considering who didn't try to flirt with him. I think he took that as "you're a professional."
Joe: Oh, I had read that too, and assumed they meant that she didn't flirt with him during a screen test or whatever. But you're saying that other people were flirting with him walking into the audition?
Sean: Yeah, that was my impression.
Joe: I didn't think of that possibility, but that's probably what it actually meant.
Sean: Leonardo was "the dude," going to clubs, hanging out.
Joe: And still kind of is!
Sean: But now I think he is more mature, and has a more gentlemanly way of doing it.
Sunny: He's on a yacht with all his 21-year-old women, having a time!
Sean: I dunno. If I was single now—I'm about to turn 31—if I was single now, the idea of dating a 21-year-old would just seem... I work at a university, I teach. I don't think I could do it. Some of them are 21, and they look so young.
Sunny: No #MeToo risk here, folks! [laughter]
Joe: Well, the rule is "Half you age, plus seven."
Sean: Is it really?
Joe: Well, not legally. But as far as what is socially acceptable. So let's see... half of 31 is fifteen and a half, plus seven is 22 and a half. So 21 would indeed be too young.
Sean: Alright...
Joe: Leonardo DiCaprio was 21—
Sean: And Claire Danes was seventeen.
Joe: Half of 21 is ten and a half, plus seven is seventeen and a half. So Claire Danes was still too young for Leonardo DiCaprio!
Sean: It was also illegal, because most states, it's 18, or plus two, something like that. So if you're seventeen, you can date a nineteen-year-old. If you're sixteen, you can date an eighteen-year-old.
Joe: But also, certain states have laws that don't supersede the national law—
Sean: The day we got our marriage license, I was driving to work, and NPR was was like, "Delaware just banned child marriage." I was like, "Alright, Delaware, you hick state!" And then the story clarified that Delaware was the first state to ban child marriage.
Joe: Wow. Meaning under eighteen?
Sean: Under eighteen. In most states, you can get married at thirteen, fourteen. Sixteen without permission from an adult.
Joe: But... the national law is eighteen—
Sunny: There is no national law. State-by-state.
Sean: Marriage is a state institution.
Joe: But the act of having sex, there's a national law, right?
Sunny: Nope. State-by-state. It's one of those things that a lot of people assume is there, and for most states it's eighteen, so it kind of is. But it's not universal.
Sean: It's kind of like murder. Murder is not a federal crime, unless you murder a federal agent.
Sunny: Or cross state lines or something.
Sean: Or you stand on a state line as you shoot someone.
Sunny: And what, fall backwards? [laughter]
Joe: Huh. Learn something new every day. Okay, different subject, I have something that Sunny will appreciate.
Sunny: I appreciate all of it, Joe.
Sean: "There's lots of things that I appreciate." That's a strong statement.
Sunny: I stand by it.
Joe: But first—the idea of "adapting Shakespeare, but modern," that's kind of a joke at this point, right? Like, "this high school is doing a rendition of Hamlet, but it's set in 21st century Harlem!"
Sunny: Not a West Side Story of fan, huh?
Sean: There's so many classic—The Lion King is Hamlet—most of Shakespeare's plays, including Romeo and Juliet, he didn't come up with that. These are very old... the story of Romeo and Juliet was a 150-year-old play from another country, that he just changed and turned into its "modern" form.
Joe: Interesting, I didn't know that.
Sunny: I read a bit of trivia on that. It was called "Rameus and Jaleus" or something like that. And the point of that story was almost didactic, in that, "This is what can happen if you let your passions get ahold of you. Be chaste, young children!" Shakespeare adapted that for his then-modern audience, who were rabble-rousing, and said, "Well, this is what happened, and it is what it is." It's more from the perspective of the kids rather than, say, god or whatever.
Sean: And, in previous versions, Mercutio was a rival love interest to Juliet. Which, I think the current version is better. In case you didn't know, Mercutio is a nephew of the prince, and a cousin to Count Paris.
Joe: I did not know that either.
Sean: So that means that Paul Rudd is part black.
Joe: Please fact check that, readers.
Sunny: The 23 and Me is in!
Joe: Okay, so obviously there has been a lot of adaptations of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Obviously this is your favorite. And you said you didn't like the Zeffirelli one.
Sean: Nope.
Joe: Have you liked any other ones?
Sean: There was one that came out in 2013. That one is set in 15th Century Italy, or it has that feel, but it has modern language.
Joe: They don't use Shakespeare's words.
Sean: Paul Giammati plays Friar Lawrence. I like the imagery of Paul Giamatti as Friar Lawrence. But he also kind of reminds me of... who is the friar... Friar Tuck, from Robin Hood, like the portly, jolly guy? But no, I didn't like the movie. It was like, "Oh great. Romeo and Juliet."
Joe: Is that because it didn't compare to your favorite Romeo + Juliet?
Sean: Definitely. There's no way I can separate that, unless I could create an alternate reality where I saw that one first. I dunno. There's a danger in doing another production of any of Shakespeare's plays, or any story that's been done before. What fresh take could you have? Or are you just doing an updated version with new actors?
Joe: So you feel like High School Musical wasn't fresh enough for you?
Sean: I was not a fan of that in high school. I found Zac Efron's character to be a bit of a bitch.
Joe: He wasn't a good enough Romeo? Okay. I didn't see it, and I did not know it was a take on Romeo and Juliet.
Sean: More or less.
Joe: The jocks are the Montagues and the nerds are the Capulets...? I don't know. I've never seen it.
Sean: Something like that, I don't know.
Joe: I want to talk about my favorite adaptation—an episode of Hey Arnold! [laughter] The class puts on Romeo and Juliet. Have you guys ever seen this episode?
Sunny: Probably.
Joe: Helga is like, "I'm not fucking trying out for this." And then she finds out that Arnold is playing Romeo, and she would have an excuse to kiss him. And she's fourth in line to play Juliet, and she convinces all the other Juliets to back out. And Lila is the last one, and Helga has to actually tell the truth, like, "I want this part because I want to kiss Arnold," and that was such a big moment for her.
Sunny and Sean: ...
Joe: I mean, I could keep going about Hey Arnold! [laughter]
Sunny: Maybe we should. That was a good episode.
Sean: Great series.
Joe: Do you want me to keep going?
Sunny: Maybe a little bit more on Hey Arnold!
Joe: Okay. I thought it was interesting that Helga, in trying to convince these other girls not to take the part, her first argument was always "But you have to kiss a boy!" And all the other girls were like, "It's Arnold. That's fine. I wouldn't mind kissing him." Meanwhile, Helga is the one that actually is in love with him, but is afraid to kiss him, even though all the other girls are saying that it would be fine for a girl to kiss Arnold, that no one could give you shit. I mean, she's in fourth grade, so I don't think she was able to acknowledge the irony.
Sean: Yup.
Joe: Alright guys, good discussion.
[laughter]
Sunny: Good Hey Arnold! talk.
Sean: It would be funny if in every interview you were able to connect the movie to Hey Arnold!
Joe: New challenge? Okay, no, wait, so I mentioned a few minutes ago that Sunny would appreciate something.
Sunny: Yeah.
Joe: There is going to be a new Romeo and Juliet version coming out. It is a hip hop version, directed by Spike Lee.
Sunny: Woah! My man is back! Back to ruining another classic work! [laughter]
Joe: Give me your thoughts, man. What's Spike Lee's hip hop Romeo and Juliet going to look like?
Sunny: Oh, it's going to be absolutely terrible. I assume they will first try to get Lin-Manuel Miranda. He will turn it down. So they'll get the fifth guy on the list. Have they said who they cast yet?
Joe: No.
Sunny: It's probably gonna be like Jaden Smith—
Sean: I was just going to say that!
Sunny: If you don't get Lin-Manuel, then Will Smith will be in there. Probably Samuel L. Jackson as the Prince.
Joe: Josh Brolin?
Sunny: God, I hope not. Actually, here's what Spike Lee will do—one family will be black, and one will be white. And that's as deep as his analysis will go, "They don't like each other because they're different races." [laughter]
Sean: And the white family will be trump supporters?
Sunny: There ya go. That's how you update it for 2020. And then the other ones are like Warren-Yang supporters or something. [laughter] And they just can't get along! The street brawls are just getting too violent! I vow to see it opening night.
Joe: Let's make a pact right now, to get together again to see it opening night.
Sunny: On the topic of adaptations and authorial intent, I saw this quote from Baz, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it: "After the success of Strictly Ballroom..." Quick tangent—are you a fan of the other Baz movies?
Joe: "The Velvet Curtain Trilogy," or whatever? [Editor's note: "The Red Curtain Trilogy"]
Sean: I'm not the biggest fan of Moulin Rouge! I really liked Great Gatsby, loved that. Not the biggest fan of Moulin Rouge! though.
Joe: Why?
Sean: I don't know. I haven't seen it since college. I didn't hate it, I wasn't like, "This is a shitty movie." But it was just like, "Okay, this is a movie."
Joe: You don't like—that's the one with "Lady Marmalade," right?
Sunny: I don't know if I've seen it.
Joe: Aw, you know, the song! The one with, um, everybody, ya know. P!nk. Who else... Christina Aguilera is the big one. Missy Elliott. They all do... that song.
Sean: I believe you.
Joe: You know the fucking song.
Sean: If Missy Elliott wrote the music for the Spike Lee film, though... Missy, if you're reading this!
Joe: But wait, apparently the soundtrack for this movie was pretty big.
Sean: Yeah. A lot of Prince's music.
Sunny: There's a Radiohead song that isn't on any album.
Joe: It actually is. Oh wait, you're talking about the song on the soundtrack. Which is different from the song in the score, the one that ends the movie. The song that ends the movie—it's called "Exit Music (for a Film)," and it's on OK Computer, so I was familiar with this song already, but I hadn't realized that it was written for this movie.
Sunny: Written for this movie? So this is a "Seal's 'Kiss from a Rose'" situation?
Joe: Thom Yorke watched the '68 Zeffirelli version, and then watched the last 20 minutes of this version, and wrote this song for it. Which is interesting! Because it's on this very critically acclaimed album. If you look at any Best Albums of the 1990s list, OK Computer is going to be up there. And it has a song that was written for Romeo + Juliet! But you're right, there's another one that was on the soundtrack.
[Editor's note: Since music is more of my bread and butter, I'll offer some clarifications here. 1) As Sean notes here in a second, there are two versions of the soundtrack. One is "music based on the film," and the other is the actual score. Read more about them here. 2) Though "Exit Music (for a Film)" was indeed written for this movie, and is played during the credits, and is on OK Computer, it is featured on neither volume of the soundtrack. 2b) Funny that this song was mentioned in Drew's interview last summer. I certainly didn't know all this backstory about the song then. 3) The song Sunny is referring to is "Talk Show Host," which was originally a B-side to The Bends single "Street Spirit (Fade Out)," and is featured on Volume 1 of the soundtrack.]
Sean: It is a great soundtrack. There are two versions of the soundtrack—the songs that are in the movie, and then the original songs from artists. Both are on YouTube, and both are good to listen to when you need some jams. And you're feeling a romantic sort of way.
Joe: Oh yeah, and the kids sing "When Doves Cry," right?
Sean: I really like that rendition.
Joe: So that was another stylistic choice by Baz Luhrmann I guess? Or were Romeo and Juliet the doves?!
Sean: I think it was stylistic choice. This was the case for both Romeo + Juliet and The Great Gatsby. Music in a film is supposed to make you feel something, right? They're trying to tell a story and make you feel feelings in a small amount of time. It's one way to accelerate that process is through music. Baz Luhrmann, in both those films, did that with the musical choices. Although, his musical choices in Gatsby were much more controversial.
Joe: I've never seen that movie.
Sean: It's hip hop. Jay-Z did the whole thing. People's criticisms were like, "Why didn't you use '20s music?" My response always is, "Would you feel toward '20s music how people felt about it in the 1920s?" You wouldn't! The closest approximation today is hip hop. It captures that essence. Therefore, to a modern audience, the best way to convey that is by using modern music. If they used '20s music, it would be, "Oh, listen to this boring, old-timey music."
Joe: So his solution was to use an artist who peaked in the '90s?
Sean: ...That's a very strong Jay-Z statement.
Sunny: If you're reading this, Jay-Z!
Joe: He was better before he met Beyoncé.
Sunny: Strong takes!
[laughter]
Sunny: So that leads into this Baz quote on author's intent: "Our philosophy has always been that we think up what we need in our life, choose something creative that will make that life fulfilling, and then follow that road. With Romeo and Juliet what I wanted to do was to look at the way in which Shakespeare might make a movie of one of his plays if he was a director. How would he make it? We don't know a lot about Shakespeare, but we do know he would make a 'movie' movie. He was a player. We know about the Elizabethan stage and that he was playing for 3000 drunken punters, from the street sweeper to the Queen of England—and his competition was bear-baiting and prostitution. So he was a relentless entertainer and a user of incredible devices and theatrical tricks to ultimately create something of meaning and convey a story. That was what we wanted to do."
Joe: Where did you find that, so I can just copy and paste it?
Sunny: Wikipedia.
Sean: I read it there too.
Sunny: It leads into what you were saying, right? It seems like Baz wanted to make the equivalent of how a 1492 Victorian Englishman and what he's seeing, to a 1990s teen and what they are seeing.
Sean: It was 1599.
Sunny: Thank you. Strike the error from the record!
Sean: Henry VII was the King of England in '92, followed by Henry VIII—
Joe: Alright dude, now you're just showing off.
Sunny: An incredible knowledge of Victorian England.
Sean: Well "Victorian England" didn't happen until the 1800s, but anyway... I'll stop.
Sunny: "I don't even know who Victoria is!" Okay, but is this movie the equivalent for a 1996 teen? Between the Radiohead, swords are guns now, Queen Mab is a pill. And, would it have the same effect, 25 years later, for a teen today to watch it?
Sean: Yes, I agree with the '90s statement. I think that was the intent. As someone who was a kid in the '90s, and grew up in the early 2000s, that's kind of how I took it. One of the elements too, especially now, talking to young students, they have no recollection of the '80s, and the gang violence. the feel of urban decay, and—
Sunny: Well, they wouldn't have any memory of it.
Sean: Right. But the idea of that is so foreign to them. A lot of them don't even know there was a crime epidemic. They talk about mass incarceration, and are just confused about why that ever occurred. The fear that people had. That's one of the things that, in the movie, Baz Luhrmann is playing off of. The violence in Verona Beach, the people walking around with guns—even though it was 1996, and the crime rate was falling, it was still a very present memory in everyone's minds.
Sunny: Especially in a city like Miami.
Sean: Some of the shots were done in Miami, exactly. So it was the idea... what are we, 25 years later? I don't know. I'm not a teen! [laughter] I'd have to ask my nephews.
Joe: That's an interesting point that I wanted to ask. In one of the retrospectives that I read, this dude Guy Lodge, for The Guardian, wrote that this movie was "never meant to reach this age: it might be the single most teenaged film ever fashioned." Whether you agree with that or not... what can you still find in this movie as a 30-year-old? You're not a teenager. I can get why a teenager would love this movie. But you're not a teenager. Speak to that. [laughter]
Sean: Well... I weigh about 45 pounds more.
Joe: And I guess this will bleed into "Why is this your favorite movie?" This is still your favorite movie, right?
Sean: It is still my favorite movie.
Joe: Is that just because it was always your favorite movie? Or was this a decision you reached after you left your teenage years behind? Or what?
Sean: I would say it became my favorite movie in high school. Since then, I've rewatched it every couple years, and it has remained my favorite movie. I actually rewatched it the week before my wedding, and up until this past Wednesday, that was the last time I had seen it. It still is my favorite movie, and maybe someday it won't be. There's just... I feel like there's a lot to learn from the film. That's not even necessarily the film, more so Shakespeare's play. One of the things the other night that I was just transfixed with and couldn't stop thinking about in the days since—you have these two families. Maybe it was the current Lord Montague and the current Lord Capulet that started the blood feud, and they have some issue there, or maybe it's something that goes back generations. Who knows? But there was essentially at one point a Montague and a Capulet that had an issue, and it developed into a hate between the two of them. And that hate spilled down through the generations, and in doing so, they lost control of it. They had no power to control some of these events. It's like Mark Antony says in Julius Caesar: "Let slip the dogs of war." Once you start this, once you let go of this chaos, it's going to spiral out of control. And it might come back to destroy you. That's what happens to Romeo's and Juliet's parents. There's this hatred between them. And even in the beginning of the film, with the big gun battle, at the petrol station, between Benvolio and—
Joe: Jamie Kennedy.
Sean: They had no control over their kids. The chief of police, Captain Prince, is saying, "If this happens again, they are going to pay with their life." And the parents say "Don't go around shooting people up!" But they have no control anymore. Hate is one of those things that spills over.
Joe: So you are saying that this is a lesson that adults can still learn.
Sean: It's definitely a lesson. Especially currently in today's world. Especially here in America, with this extreme polarization. You see, at the party at the Capulets' house, you see Tybalt. Tybalt is so offended by just the presence of Romeo. "His presence is an insult and I have to go kill him right now!"
Sunny: Tybalt sees Romeo tripping balls, and thinks, "This guy's gotta die." [laughter]
Sean: Exactly! That's the thing. It's not like he's pissing on his furniture. He's just a dude who showed up, and by all means is being a good guest. But his very presence means "I have to kill you." Lord Montague slaps him, and is like, "It's not a big deal." To him, it's not a big deal, because this hatred that he helped unleash, or at least usher into the next generation, he has no control over it anymore. Tybalt confronts Romeo on the beach because "you came to a party at my house. You were there, so now we have to do this thing." That's one of the things that bothered Mercutio. Mercutio is in a different family. He kind of floats between the two families. But he sees Romeo, his best friend, not standing up to this guy, so he takes on that hate that Romeo is supposed to feel. He takes on the position of "I'm going to defend your house, your honor." And he ends up getting killed for it! When he gets stabbed, he has that immediate realization—you see it in the film, his face when he looks down, and he sees the wound, and that's when he says, "A plague on both your houses! You've made worms' meat of me!" The hatred, the bullshit, this nasty demon has caused the end of his life. And because he dove into that, because of his own inability to control the darkness and rage inside of him, he's going to be a dead man.
Joe: If this World War III starts, there might be a decent amount of people that have those same deathbed thoughts. "What was this all even for? I got roped up into this pointless war," ya know?
Sean: I remember in high school, someone asked the teacher about this book, "Why were they fighting? What was the blood feud over?" Her response was, "We don't know, Shakespeare never said." And my point at the time was, I don't think it matters. All that matters is that there is one. That's the thing too—even if the blood feud was something serious, why does it matter to the next generation? One of the principles that was at the heart of the debate when they were creating the Constitution, and other early laws of the United States, was this idea that the sins of the father shouldn't fall on the son. That you shouldn't be held accountable for your parents' decisions. You are your own person. It was breaking of the idea of the aristocracy, the old-world ideals. That's an element that I see here, when people are beholden to what their parents did or didn't do, or were mad about. Your parents could hate your next door neighbors, but then your parents pass away, and you move into the house, and you're like, "Well, George and Nancy are actually nice people, I don't know why my parents didn't like them." And you should be able to move on with that.
Joe: You know, it's interesting, I hadn't thought about trying to connect this movie and Oldboy in this way, but it really does speak to the idea of "revenge," and wanting to spill blood over something that already happened, as opposed to just walking away. That's probably something that we can think about for both movies, whether our reactions to people's negative thoughts and hate are appropriate.
Sean: Hate is one of the most visceral emotions that a human can feel. I would argue that it's one of the most destructive. It's one of those things that you have to keep to yourself, at least in the sense that you shouldn't pass it on to others. But you can't hold on to it, you have to let it go. Obviously, what that means in each particular situation is different, and it's occasionally not possible. But it's definitely not something that you should be spreading. It's one of the worst diseases!
Joe: How could the characters in the movie have applied that lesson better? Did Romeo and Juliet even need that lesson?
Sean: That's the thing too. Romeo, the reason he's not fighting Tybalt, he essentially says, "We're kin now. I can't hurt a brother." But of course Tybalt doesn't know that. So I think Romeo was trying. And Juliet was like, "Oh yeah, the Montagues, we hate them," but then she's like, "Oh, cute boy!" I think really what it comes down to is... I blame Father Lawrence. His thought was, "I'll secretly marry them, and then we'll tell everyone."
Joe: Right, and that was never followed up on.
Sean: Because Juliet had to get back to her house, because she only had permission to go to confession, so there was probably a time limit. So she goes back to her place, and he goes back to the beach to hang out with the boys, after marriage... which is an interesting way to celebrate marriage.
Joe: Hey, people can have their bachelor party after the wedding. That's a thing! Stephan, if you're reading this, that's a thing!
Sunny: Hopefully one of your best friends doesn't die at that bachelor party. [laughter]
Sean: To a degree, I understand Father Lawrence's motivation there. "If I told the parents before I married them, they'd just be like, 'You're not getting married.'" But once you get married, especially in an extremely religious society—you made a sacrament, that God witnessed. You can't undo marriage.
Sunny: No annulment policy.
Sean: In the Catholic Church, and in most states, you're not actually married unless you consummate it. So, one of the ways to get an annulment is that the sacrament didn't fully occur until you have had sex. If you get married, and you are married for 20 years, and... I don't know how you'd prove this to the Catholic Church—
Joe: They have their ways.
Sean: Then you can be granted an annulment, even after 20 years. [Editor's note: Ehhhh... it's a bit more nuanced than that. Not that I give a shit one way or the other.] So maybe that was part of it, like, "Oh, they have to have tonight to consummate it," and then, "Look, it happened, now you guys should come together." In the movie, you saw newspaper clippings of the two of them begrudgingly shaking hands. I dunno...
Joe: So it's your favorite movie because there's a lot to think about. There's layers.
Sean: There's a lot to think about.
Joe: And this is everything that you were thinking about, at nine years old, at the Holiday Inn.
Sean: I was definitely thinking about that, yup.
Sunny: This movie is very polarizing.
Sean: Yes.
Sunny: It's got a 72% on Rotten Tomatoes. Which is not bad.
Joe: Is that "certified fresh"?
Sunny: I think it's "fresh." I've read both good and bad reviews for it. I think Siskel and Ebert's At the Movies sums it up quite nicely. Siskel introduces it, says, "This is a modern take, but it uses the old language, Leonardo DiCaprio and Claire Danes are hot young actors, it's fun, I give this one thumb up." And Ebert is immediately like, "This is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. This is a disgrace to Shakespeare, and frankly, the human language." [laughter]
Joe: Which is an interesting criticism, because it uses Shakespeare's language.
Sunny: His whole thing was that these were not Shakespearean actors. A lot of people had this gripe too. I've heard everything from, "They're not like Laurence Olivier," or "They just can't do it," or, "They're delivering it flatly," or whatever. And I'm not a Shakespearean actor or scholar, so I can't really comment. My more general question is, why do you think this movie is so polarizing? I've never met anyone or read anything that said "Eh, it was alright." Everyone's either "that was great" or "that was dumb as hell."
Sean: If you take a very classic, very overdone story—"overdone" in the sense of the "traditional" way of doing it—and there's people who dedicate their lives to being in Shakespearean plays, for 50 years that's all they do. The travel the world, they play Hamlet like twelve times or something, they're renown, they have awards, scholarships, whatever. So there's that camp, and then there are so many adaptions of Shakespeare plays, so many ways of doing it, that it kind of... it begs the question at times, "Why do it?" or "Why do it again?" So when you do do it, it's either going to be something that certain people hate or love. If you did a very traditional Shakespeare play or movie, there's going to be the scholars, the "true fans" of original Shakespeare, that are going to be like, this is a good adaption, or this is a bad one. There's going to be other people, the general public, like me and you, who are going to be like, "Yeah, that was... Shakespeare." And I have no way of telling the difference between a good traditional Shakespeare and a mediocre one. You could tell a bad one.
Joe: But do you think there's a difference between the questions "Is this a good adaptation?" and "Is this a good movie?"
Sean: 100%
Joe: Is it a good adaptation? I don't know. I'm not a Shakespeare guy. I definitely understood more of what was going on because there were amateur Shakespeare actors acting it out. Would I say it was a good movie? I might fall in the camp of "this was dumb as hell." I enjoyed watching it, but, ya know... it was absolutely dumb as hell. No offense. You obviously fall in the camp of "it was great."
Sean: I think it was great. I think it was a fresh adaptation, and I thought it was a good movie. I thought it was a risky movie, though. It's on a very well-tread subject. When you do something like that, something risky because it's a subject that's been done and people are familiar with, you're going to have a lot of polarizing views. Especially when you can do something that's an adaptation or is very traditional. He does kind of a mold of two, doesn't he? He does the traditional dialogue, but a modern adaptation, regarding timing and location and all that. Yeah, very polarizing.
Sunny: This thing won some awards. At the Berlin Film Festival—I guess this would be '97—DiCaprio won the Silver Bear. Good for him. And it got nominated for the Golden Bear, but did not win. It lost to The People Vs. Larry Flynt, which is a good movie. But the one award I would agree with, which resonates with what you said—it won the Alfred Bauer "New Perspectives on Cinematic Art" Award. If nothing else, this movie did push boundaries, visually. And that's important, even if the argument is "I didn't like how they pushed the boundaries."
Joe: See, I thought you were going to ask about its being nominated for an MTV Movie Award for "Best On-Screen Kiss." [laughter]
Sunny: What won?
Joe: The English Patient. [laughter] No, I don't know. [Editor's note: If you really must know, Leo and Claire lost to Vivica A. Fox and Will Smith for their Independence Day kiss.] But The English Patient is what beat it for its only Oscar nomination, Best Art Direction/Set Direction. The English Patient I guess won a lot that year.
Sean: I've never seen The English Patient. I've scrolled past it on a lot of streaming services.
Joe: I'm more familiar with it through Seinfeld. Wasn't that a bit?
Sunny: Just how much Elaine hated it. She would probably like Romeo + Juliet more!
Joe: I remember watching the pilot of Seinfeld—I had the first season on DVD, and it's a bad season of television—but I was watching the director's commentary, and they made a big deal about how Jerry Seinfeld made a joke, "Oh, it's like the Montagues and the Capulets!" and how that was supposed to show that Seinfeld "doesn't hold the audience's hand" and how they "trusted" the audience to get this "highbrow joke." Is Romeo + Juliet highbrow?
Sean: I would argue no. It should be basic knowledge, at least for anyone who went to high school in the United States—I'm not sure how familiar the rest of the world is. Pretty much everyone covers at least one Shakespearean play—even if it's not Romeo and Juliet, you at least learn about Romeo and Juliet through that. But when Gatsby came out, the movie, there was a guy who Wendy worked with that was like, "Yeah, I really want to see that film." She said, "I do too, because I really loved that book in high school." And his response was, "There's a book?" [laughter] And this is a guy who earns a high six-figure salary in the finance industry. I would think that The Great Gatsby is common knowledge, but maybe it is highbrow. I dunno.
Sunny: Would you consider yourself a Shakespeare guy?
Sean: I'll say this—there are people out there who are "Shakespeare people," and to them, I've "heard of Shakespeare."
Sunny: But to me and Joe?
Sean: To you and Joe, I would say that I've read some more Shakespeare than you guys probably have. But I wouldn't call myself a "Shakespeare guy."
Joe: I'd say you are a Shakespeare guy to us, since your favorite movie of all time is Romeo + Juliet. No one else is picking a Shakespeare movie as their favorite movie of all time.
Sean: I've read multiple Shakespeare plays in school, and on my own. Years ago, I read a number of his sonnets. But yeah... that's dangerous territory.
Sunny: People get real touchy about it. Would people get touchy about a question like, "Should Shakespeare still be in the Western canon?"
Sean: I think there's definitely an argument for Shakespeare, and I think anyone who dismisses it is being intellectually dishonest about the contribution it can provide. The purpose of the "Western canon" and the books you read in high school isn't just to be "read some books," it's supposed to help you critically think. One of the biggest things to pass a test in Shakespeare is that you really have to think about this shit.
Joe: How would you respond to Pam's assertion that this was "a pretentious pick for Sean's favorite movie of all time"?
[laughter]
Sean: I would say that Pam is one of those people that critiques me. We had a party once in college, where you had to dress as somebody else at the party. Pam came dressed in a beanie and a cardigan, and she had a book that was covered in a piece of paper that just said "Philosophy" on it. [laughter] So my response is that I think it's a very Pam thing to say. Maybe she's right, maybe it is pretentious. I don't know. I try not to be pretentious... actually, that's a lie.
Joe: Yeah, get the fuck out of here.
Sean: I don't really think about it. At times, I think, "This might come off as pretentious," and then I usually conclude: "Fuck it."
Sunny: It might come off as pretentious... because it is.
Sean: And maybe I am. But we all have flaws.
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