Welcome back to another installment of Your Favorite Movie. It's time to sit back, relax, and read a conversation with a friend (i.e. fuck podcasts), all about his or her favorite movie.
Typically, I would introduce the friend with some sardonic quip like "This poor sucker got bamboozled into providing me with blog content," but I spoke this week with Nate A****, the only other sucker I know who still writes for his own blog. I met Nate in his scroungy dorm room down the hall in 2007, in a drunken preparation for a Hold Steady concert. This was after I had Facebooked him about burning me some music after I saw his record collection via iTunes Home Sharing (I know it was twelve years ago, but shit, looking back on the idea of Facebooking a stranger still makes me cringe). Anyways, far removed from being some random drunk freshman in a senior's dorm, we have become actual friends in recent years, due to geography, drinking, similarly-aged babies, and... yeah, the fact that we both write about music on blogs in 2019.
It surprised me a little bit that Nate chose as his favorite movie The Big Lebowski, because, having only a cursory understanding of the movie, I didn't think there was much to discuss. But the movie is fatter and older than I realized, and Nate did a good job of fleshing it out below (with his permission, lightly edited, etc., etc., you know the deal). We sat in a bar backyard in Fishtown, drinking beers in preparation for another concert... because maybe we're really not that far removed from that 2007 Hold Steady concert after all.
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Joe: Yeah. A lot of the people that didn't respond to the Facebook thing, when I ask them, like, "Oh, you didn't tell me your favorite movie," they say, "because I didn't fucking know!"
Nate: Yeah, before you ask me any questions, I'm going to caveat with this: I think trying to commit to a favorite of anything is hard. I think all you can do is say, this is a list of, like, these are the seven things. And go from there. There's no bad answer there. So I'll say that this is certainly one of my favorite movies. And if you catch me on the right day, it's my absolute favorite movie. But it's a hard question.
Joe: Do you feel like you picked it because it was just the easiest to talk about out of the seven that you liked?
Nate: So there was three movies that came to mind. The first one was this one. The second was No Country for Old Men. And the third one was 12 Angry Men. 12 Angry Men, are you familiar with that film?
Joe: No.
Nate: It was from, I believe, the '50s. It's a courtroom drama, this jury is trying convince—
Joe: Oh yeah! Okay, sure.
Nate: Love that movie. Black-and-white. It's been remade a bunch. Uh... that's really more of a play. That's also just, like, twelve dudes talking. It's about the power of how good it is to talk? And I'm like, I like this movie a lot, but I would hesitate to call it my very favorite. And No Country for Old Men, I really love it, but it's also recency bias a little bit? It just came out twelve years ago, so it hasn't been out long enough for it to truly gestate, and to compare to the classics. But that was the other one I thought about.
Joe: So anyone who picks those two movies is going to have to answer to Nate A****.
Nate: Just know that anyone who picks any movie is going to have to answer to Nate A****. But certainly for those two.
Joe: [laughter] In deference to the blog series "Meagan and Nate Go to the Movies"—
Nate: [laughter]
Joe: ...what does your wife think of The Big Lebowski?
Nate: She hasn't seen it yet.
Joe: If you had to guess what she would think of it.
Nate: I think she would... I think she would find it funny, and like it, but it would take a while to get to it. And that's not necessarily for reasons that are born in the movie, but reasons that are born in my own family. There is this very big legacy of the film in my family. We watch it on Christmas Eve. It's our It's a Wonderful Life. My father will throw it on at any hour of the day, at any occasion. If there's a block of time where we're just sitting around for 45 minutes, he might just throw it on. We will reference the film a lot in conversation. It's one of those things where everyone in my immediate family, even my mother, has come to appreciate it enough, and fold it into our personal, familial lexicon, that it's become... annoying? So for Meagan to be an in-law into that, she has a... I wouldn't say hesitance, but I think there would be a lot of: "This is a fucking A**** movie." To get over, to like it. I think she would ultimately like it a lot.
Joe: It's very interesting that this is the fifth movie I've discussed with somebody, and it's third time that somebody said this is a movie that they would watch during the holidays with family. Does that mean that our favorite movies are that much connected to how much we care about family?
Nate: I have a much simpler explanation. The holidays are, by and large, the time when families get together. And they are, by and large—at least in my family—what other opportunity is [there] where we're all sitting around in the same place? Right? Maybe we don't have a lot to talk about, or a lot of things going on in our lives, what is a way we can have some commonality? What about this movie we've all seen before that we all like? It could be just as simple as that. It could be as deep as, yes, these movies are the "stories we tell each other," that are ingrained in our being. But it might just be that everyone's together for limited amounts of time, watching something low key. No one has to focus too much. You can move in and out of it. It's an easy, passive thing to do.
Joe: I guess it's interesting that The Big Lebowski is that movie for you, because it is a very passive movie.
Nate: And this is what I like about it. You can just be alone with that movie, and turn your head, and check out what's happening. And you can be sitting into it, staring at the screen the whole time, looking for connections. I think it's a very satisfying movie in either regard. It works on two completely different, distinct levels. Which is part of why I have a fraught relationship with it now. Later in my life. But we can talk about that later.
Joe: Okay!
Nate: Please, I don't want to preempt your questions here.
Joe: No, not at all. So... let me quote Fatter Older. "I love The Big Lebowski as much as, and probably more than, this guy, but I realize getting a Lebowski-themed tattoo is to send a certain message to the world. I'm not prepared to send that message." This is referring to you seeing a Lebowski-themed tattoo.
Nate: This was on my list of the worst tattoos, was it not?
Joe: Yes.
Nate: So... classic Fatter Older blog post!
Joe: I feel like this is the point where you are sending a message to the world. By staking this as your favorite movie. So what is the message that you are sending?
Nate: But here's the thing. I've already outed myself by saying there's a list of seven other movies. So clearly I've revealed myself to be a multifaceted person.
Joe: But this is the one you chose, so there is a message.
Nate: I think the message would be: It's time for people to reclaim this movie. This movie has been, for lack of a better word, co-opted by dorks.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: And I need to be clear on this. This movie now lives in a space that is adjacent to Rocky Horror Picture Show, or adjacent to The Room, in that there is a culture around this movie that celebrates this movie to fetishistic degree. Right? There are festivals that happen called Lewbowski Fest, where people go to these festivals, dressed as their favorite characters, and they will say their favorite lines to each other, as if they are in the film. And I find that shit so lame and abhorrent.
Joe: Like, cringe-worthy.
Nate: Yes, deeply cringe-worthy. And that's the disconnect I feel. On a level—and this is what I'm talking about with the "fraught relationship"—people love this movie. And I think this movie's genius is that it can say everything or nothing about culture, if you want it to. It is an empty vessel, and it is a full painting, in that you can glean a lot of meaning from it, or you can laugh at the jokes. And I feel like too many people have connected to the surface-level pieces of it. Not enough with the sort of metatextual, larger, philosophical conversation going on beneath the movie.
Joe: There was a lot of connections to The Big Lebowski in the Collegian section, CAKE. [Editor's note: This was the satire section of La Salle's newspaper. Nate, while a student, was the Entertainment section editor.]
Nate: [laughter] When you were running it?
Joe: No! I was Kicks.
Nate: You never made the leap over to CAKE?
Joe: We switched for one week [only, as a lark], and I just wrote a big long essay about The Big Lebowski, because I thought that was the biggest connection I could make with CAKE.
Nate: This was after my time, correct?
Joe: Yeah, when we switched, but the guys that were doing it, I think did it all four years?
Nate: The guys I thought did it... anyways, were getting deep down the road here.
Joe: Sure.
Nate: I just know that—I'm saying this, now that we're talking about CAKE, I'm glad this will be on the record—CAKE in the Collegian was historically a place for, like, real comedy snob-level comedy. A truly off-kilter, left-beat sort of thing. Historical, when I came to the newspaper. And that was because the people at the helm were deeply funny people. Creative. They've gone on to do funny things. And as time goes on, less and less funny people took over that section of the paper, and I'm not surprised to hear it devolved into Big Lebowski jokes. The Big Lebowski jokes are the sort of jokes you make when you want to appear to be funny, but you're not. Which is, again, part of the fraught relationship I have with this movie. [Editor's note: If any previous CAKE editor is reading this, I'd love to hear your response to this when you are discussing with me your own favorite movie... though, hopefully, your favorite movie isn't The Big Lebowski.]
Joe: What do you feel is the point of this movie?
Nate: So, just to be clear, what is the movie saying?
Joe: Sure. If there is one.
Nate: I think the movie simultaneously has a deeply cynical, but a deeply—"compassion" is the wrong word—but it has a very cynical view of how people feel about themselves, how they position themselves in the world and treat themselves. It also has a cynical view against the opposite. Against the counterculture. But it's very compassionate about it as well.
Joe: About both?
Nate: About both. I think the point the movie is trying to make is that we're all stuck, we're all ridiculous. And there may not be a better way to live, any other way. So the best we can do is do as little harm as possible. But... again, you have to dig pretty far for a movie that has a joke about a guy smoking a roach, and then it falls on his dick, and he crashes his car.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: So you have to dig for it a little bit. But I sort of think the key to it is, in one of the last scenes of the movie, they're shaking out the ashes of their dead friend. And the ashes blow all into—
Joe: Which is a great bit.
Nate: It's fucking hysterical. But it's also very bleak and very sad, but it's also very poignant, and ultimately I think that's what this movie is getting at. Life is a bleak, sad affair, but it's hilarious, so the best you can do is try to do right by other people. I think that's what it's ultimately trying to say.
Joe: Do you feel like the Dude kind of emulates that idea, that you shouldn't take things too seriously? I mean... I guess they literally spell that out.
Nate: The opening monologue is entirely about that. [laughter]
Joe: True. I guess I found it interesting during those moments where a character was—a secondary character was "very serious." For example, "The Big" Lebowski, the second or third scene with him where he's staring into the fire, and says something like, "What makes a man?" and the Dude is like... "Do you mind if I smoke a bowl in here, man?" I feel like the first line is "this is a typical movie," and the second line is [a character] knowing—maybe not breaking the fourth wall, but knowing somewhat inherently that this is ridiculous, everything that's happening. Commenting on the fact that this movie is, in itself, ridiculous.
Nate: That's kind of what makes it work, that the Dude himself is so ridiculous a character, so as to be a mirror for the ridiculous things that are happening around him. "The Big" Lebowski is looking into a fire because his trophy wife is missing, shrouded in robes in a dark room, and [the Dude] wants to smoke a jay. It's a reflection on how dramatic and silly this all is. And that's the deeper level. There's also the mid-level subterfuge of: there is no larger mystery here. Just somebody ran off. That's all it is. There's no kidnapping. There's no heist. And that's another part of it. In life, there is no heist. In life, there is no plot. There's just a series of things that happen, and sometimes they look like they connect, but more often than not, they don't.
Joe: So you're saying this is a very realistic movie.
Nate: If you wanna get deep into it, I think it's a very cogent reflection of how I see life truly unfolding. It's hard to say it's "realistic"...because of the acid flashbacks... And this is my point. This movie is something that I like a lot—it's basically a crime novel. It's a crime story. The Dude is the archetype of a bungling private eye. Now, granted, the stakes are much lower, but it has all the hallmarks. He's hired, he meets Person A, Person A leads to Twist B, Twist B to Spot C, and by that point, there are so many characters and place it could be going, you don't know what to think. You don't know who's important, who's not important. There are dream sequences, where you wonder, is this real? Is this not real? It's got a lot of tastes of mystery writing and noir film writing, while also being sort of a weird stoner comedy. I just all that very compelling from a formulaic level... but it's also really funny when the guy says, "Nice marmot," throws a fucking weasel in the bathtub, and says "I'm gonna cut off your johnson!" That stuff just works! It just works.
Joe: I guess I did see that the Coen Brothers based this on a mystery novelist—
Nate: Raymond Chandler, yeah.
Joe: —and apparently his stories would be interesting, like this, and then ultimately go nowhere.
Nate: So that was like—not to paint with too broad a brush, not to make this movie blog a literature blog—
Joe: We have Book Club tomorrow, so...
Nate: [laughter] That's true. So—a big piece of genre crime fiction from the '50s and '60s in American West is: there's a down-on-his-luck P.I. who gets hired by a dame, and by being hired by a dame, eventually goes down a dark alley and gets blackjacked, and has a dream sequence, and he gets to a place where he's not sure what's real and what's not real, and he just gets sucked into this world where every character could be connected, but ultimately... the answer was staring you in the face the entire time, but you got caught looking at the pinstripes to a certain degree. There was just so much happening that anything seemed possible. And at the end of it, the thing that was most possible was the thing that actually happened. The art is in making you, the reader—or the watcher—start to also ignore what, in your head, you know is the right answer, to hang out with these weird characters.
Joe: There were a lot of weird characters.
Nate: Who did you think the weirdest character was? I know this [supposed to be] you asking me questions, but I'm wondering who you thought was a weird character.
Joe: I guess the Germans?
Nate: The nihilists?
Joe: The nihilists. Including, Flea?
Nate: [laughter] That's right.
Joe: And Aimee Mann?
Nate: Aimee Mann was the girlfriend of Flea. And Peter Stormare, a great character actor, was one of the nihilists.
Joe: There was a lot—
Nate: Before you get into this question, I want to talk about my favorite character as time has gone on. The guy who was hanging out in Maude's apartment? Just cackling at the Dude?
Joe: I feel like there's a lot of characters like that, who were just—not connected to the main plot, but who were—and not even commenting on the plot, just like, hanging on the fringes, being their own asshole-ish selves.
Nate: So if you wanna be a fart-sniffer, you can be like, "That's what life is like," right? But I think the answer is, that dude is just fucking funny. Cackles at Lebowski, is just like, "Ahhh, it's Dennis about the Beinnale!" He has a weirdly affected accent, and the way he's just being a dick. He's just a funny guy. I assume someone was like, it would be funny to watch the Dude play off of this weird art prick for a few minutes. Or it would be funny to watch the Dude and Walter talk to a guy in an iron lung while they threaten the kid about his homework. That stuff, I think, would just be funny.
Joe: Was there any character in this movie who wasn't a dick?
Nate: Yes, and he dies.
Joe: Donny.
Nate: The only character who is not a dick is Donny. And that's correct, he's the only nice guy. And he's also, like—he's not capable, but he's the only guy who is remotely... it's funny because, those three guys are funny together because Walter is just talking to the Dude, the Dude is not taking anything Walter says seriously. Donny is keyed in on every word, and all Walter can tell him to do is shut the fuck up. And it's such this weird younger-brother-older-brother relationship. But it gets me every time. That whole jag about "Lenin said..." "I Am the Walrus," "I Am the Walrus," "That was V.I. Lenin!" I think about that every now and then, and it just makes me laugh. It's just fucking funny. I think a lot of this comes down to this is just a fucking funny movie. There's a lot of really strong, weird performances in it. Everyone seems very game to goof around, and it's very funny, and very fun to hang out in that world.
Joe: I guess that circles back around to you getting upset about people taking it a little more seriously than it deserves to be taken.
Nate: Yeah, sure.
Joe: I know you had mentioned the festivals, but we didn't mention that there is a religion based around the Dude. "Dudeism."
Nate: Oh boy, oh boy.
Joe: [laughter] It [reading from notes] advocates and encourages the practice of "going with the flow", "being cool headed", et cetera... "taking it easy."
Nate: I mean, this is what's fucked up. There are actual established religions where the goal is to do that. So when you say "I practice Dudeism," I just think, alright, number one, you're an idiot. You're just an idiot. And, I dunno, number two, you must really like pot or acid. I think you've done enough party drugs to the point where you think you've solved the problem, and the solution is something someone thought of ten thousand years ago... but what is your question? Sorry. [laughter]
Joe: [pause] Do you see any of yourself in the Dude?
Nate: [laughter]
Joe: That wasn't supposed to be the follow-up question.
Nate: No, sure.
Joe: It felt right.
Nate: I think the beauty of it is if you're doing it right, everyone should see a little bit of themselves in the Dude from time to time. Because the Dude is... I mean look at him. He's overmatched, he's slow. He's charming, but he's always a few steps behind what's going on. And when the going gets tough, he quits. Those are very relatable traits to me. On the surface level, we're nothing alike. I have a job, he doesn't. He smokes more pot than I do.
Joe: You have a family.
Nate: I think milk and alcohol are gross together.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: There are definitely things I find appealing. There is a value in learning to just let things unfold. But the other side of that is, you become—you have to go see your landlord's interpretive dance performance, because you can't afford to pay the rent. There's a point where just going with the flow leads to doing nothing. And maybe that's the point? Maybe the point is that it's complete Zen to want nothing. Maybe that's the goal. But I don't see a great deal of similarities between myself and the Dude. I feel like I have more in common with Walter at this point in my life.
Joe: [laughter] The anger?
Nate: Flying off the handle for no reason. [laughter] About stupid shit. Pulling a gun on someone for stepping over the line.
Joe: Probably my favorite bit is when he smashed the car. Just the repeating [of the phrase].
Nate: What makes it the best is the deadpan on the kid's face. Yeah, and this is the fucking thing. I have a hard time totally rejecting the whole festival piece of it, because... it's a funny movie. There are a lot of good jokes in this movie. But I think that the people who are doing things like Dudeism and going to Lebowski Fest are just engaging with the parts of it that I find the least thematically interesting, although the most satisfying from a comedy perspective.
Joe: That's fair. I feel like it's always—people like that always latch on to movies that are quotable. Though there's not a religion based on Anchorman, I heard a lot of Anchorman quotes in my youth.
Nate: [laughter] That's the thing. Anchorman quotes, you heard a lot of... because I said them a lot in high school. You heard a lot of Wedding Crashers quotes in college. There is this whole "culture." I think that if this movie was more successful, it would absolutely be in that same quotable place as Anchorman. But, because it was only seen by, like, film dweebs and stoner dads, the film dweebs and stoner dads are the ones doing the festivals. I think if more people saw it, there wouldn't be festivals. It would just be quoted by frat dudes, and we could all just move on with our lives.
Joe: [laughter] Okay.
Nate: Yeah, let's get back on track here.
Joe: So. We're gonna rate some of the music—
Nate: Excellent.
Joe: —using the Nates System. [Editor's note: You can find an explanation for this HERE. Warning: the pretentiousness of naming a rating system after yourself is part of the joke!]
Nate: I love it.
Joe: We have to start with the Eagles. Neutral Nates?
Nate: Um, first of all, it's "Zero Nates." How dare you. I will give the Eagles Zero Nates, because I do find them abhorrent, but they are doing the thing they are meant to be doing.
Joe: I read through the IMDB Trivia typically, for these movies. There's not really many things to discuss—
Nate: There's not much trivia there?
Joe: There's a lot [for Big Lebowski], but nothing I could bounce off you besides, like, "Hey, did you know this?" But the one thing I did find interesting was that Glenn Frey of the Eagles took very much offense to the fact that the Dude hated the Eagles, and like, confronted Jeff Bridges at a party. Like, "Why didn't he like the Eagles?"
Nate: I think that is very telling as to why the Dude doesn't like the Eagles. Like, that kind of behavior there is your answer, Glenn!
Joe: That's fair.
Nate: And this is not for a movie blog, honestly, but the Eagles are funny for how... there's a documentary about the Eagles, have you ever seen it?
Joe: No.
Nate: They fucking hate each other, and they're miserable assholes. They are fucking pricks who made this weird, toothless soft rock. And it's just this weird, incongruous thing, for these guys to be haughty and huffy about, like, who came up for the riff for... I dunno, I can't even think of an Eagles song! Fucking "Hotel California." It's a good documentary to watch.
Joe: "Take It Easy."
Nate: If you wanna see a bunch of intense guys get mean about shitty music, it's a great documentary for that. Anyways, Zero Nates for the Eagles. The Eagles do what they mean to.
Joe: They make a lot of money off that shit.
Nate: Look, I begrudge no one. It's not for me. God bless them.
Joe: How the fuck—this has nothing to do with the movie.
Nate: Sure.
Joe: How is a greatest hits album the best selling album of all time?! [Editor's note: It depends on how you count streams. Pure sales, the child molester seems to have the Eagles beat. But with streams included, Their Greatest Hits (1971-1975), tops the list. YMMV.]
Nate: It's inexplicable, isn't it? What it tells me is that, it's the power of radio, man. You get five great radio songs, and that's all it takes. It's the same reason... why are we still hearing "Hotel California"? There's something about it, fifty years later, that resonates.
Joe: It's insane.
Nate: You hate it. You hate that a greatest hits album is the most successful one.
Joe: Right!
Nate: [laughter] I don't blame you.
Joe: If someone picked that for Record Club...
Nate: Isn't that supposed to be how it works, in theory? If you put all your best songs on the same record, shouldn't that be your best record?
Joe: I guess it was a time [during which] people had to spend money on music. But also had limited amounts of money to spend?
Nate: I think it's the same reason that nobody that I know has a single Queen record, but everybody I know has that two-disc Queen "Best of."
Joe: Fuck Queen, man.
Nate: [laughter] It's the same thing. Maybe the songs are so good, you don't need to engage with the rest of it. Maybe it's, like, you already so completely accomplished your goal, as to not have to go back to the albums? I dunno. Maybe folks just wanna listen to "Take It Easy."
Joe: Queen... Zero Nates?
Nate: I give Queen One Nate Up. Hate to say it.
Joe: I give it a Thousand Joes Down.
Nate: [laughter]
Joe: Um, okay. The Dude was a Metallica roadie.
Nate: The Speed of Sound tour?
Joe: Just, Metallica in general.
Nate: Oh, interesting. Metallica, I think, is a good example of a band that started in one place, dropped to some really bad lows, and, by just hanging around long enough, got themselves back up to some place close to respectability. I will begrudgingly give Metallica Zero Nates, though I feel they are an excellent candidate for One Nate Down, given how far afield they went in the '90s and the 2000s. And they put out what might be one of the worst pop-metal albums ever.
Joe: St. Anger.
Nate: There are some good tunes on St. Anger, but the lyrics are unbelievably bad. The production's very bad.
Joe: As someone who was on the crew team for one month, the only month after St. Anger came out, and had to hear that music while the crew team was on their ergometers—and also as someone who steals music constantly... I give Metallica a Thousand Joes Down.
Nate: Wait, I have a question for you. As a drummer, how did you feel about the drum sounds on St. Anger?
Joe: I feel like he's closer to Neil Peart, who is a robot that doesn't feel anything, than Meg White, who is not technically sound, but has more soul—
Nate: Right, like more feeling—
Joe: He's not Ringo. So fuck him.
Nate: He definitely sounds like he's playing a folding chair during certain parts of that album.
Joe: And he also sued his own fans. So he can go fuck himself.
Nate: Yeah, that's fucked up too. [Editor's note: Since this interview took place, it was reported that Metallica took part in some shady business practices involving ticket sales. If it seems like I am piling on Metallica, then they probably deserve it.]
Joe: Um... Red Hot Chili Peppers?
Nate: [sigh] This is the failing of the scale. I don't like the Red Hot Chili Peppers. But, there's no denying that they achieved their goal of being the horniest band around for a very long time.
Joe: [laughter] Do you feel like they are more horny or less horny because they covered their penises up with socks?
Nate: [laughter] That's a great question.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: I don't think I've ever been asked that question before. I think that they are obviously less horny. If they were truly as they were purported to be, they would just have their penises out all the time.
Joe: As someone who often takes the sock off, I give them a Thousand Joes Down.
Nate: [laughter] I give them Zero Nates. I hate it, but I give them Zero Nates.
Joe: Aimee Mann. The toeless Aimee Mann.
Nate: I give Aimee Mann... I'm tempted to give her Two Nates Up. I will give her One Nate Up. It's only because I'm not fully aware of her catalog enough to give her the full Two Nates. But, she definitely seems to elevate anything she appears on. And, I think she's due for me to spend some time with her. Based on my limited knowledge of Aimee Man, I will give her One Nate Up, tentative Two Nates Up.
Joe: Okay. I actually agree with you, possibly for the same reasons. I liked Mental Illness a few years ago. I will not give her a Thousand Joes Down.
Nate: She was on a record with Ted Leo about five years ago.
Joe: I forgot about that! I never listened to that.
Nate: Great record.
Joe: Okay, earn your music blog credentials. Phoebe Bridgers. You know why [I'm asking]. You can make the connection.
Nate: Sure, I'll make the connection. For those of you who will be reading this later on down the road, there's a scene in The Big Lebowski in which Walter and the Dude go to West Hollywood to find... what the guy's name? The son of...
Joe: Larry Sellers.
Nate: They go to find Larry Sellers—
Joe: Only because I just watched it yesterday.
Nate: —the son of... David Sellers? Who's the father? What's his name? Doesn't matter now.
Joe: The scriptwriter.
Nate: He wrote the bulk of the TV show Bonanza. And Walter is star-struck by this. [laughter] Bonanza! '78, or whenever it was. So they go to this guy's house to threaten Larry Sellers, who ends up being a fifteen-year-old kid. Walter ends up grabbing a tire iron and says, "Do you know what happens, Larry, when you fuck a stranger in the ass? This is what happens!" And he starts smashing what he thinks is Larry Sellers' car. And he just keeps screaming it, "This is what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass, Larry! This is what happens!" It turns out not to be Larry's car. Very funny scene, probably the best scene in the movie. But, if you watch the movie on an edit on TNT, you can't say "fuck a stranger in the ass." So in the edits, they say "This is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps!" Which is also... Two Nates Up for whoever came up with the dubs for that. They should be paid overtime.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: And Phoebe Bridgers, her debut album is titled Stranger in the Alps, a reference to the dubbing of that very vulgar scene in the original. I give Phoebe Bridgers One Nate Up. I'm prepared to give her two. I've listened to her debut, I've listened to the boygenius EP, I've listened to the Conor Oberst record. And she writes some of the saddest fucking music I've ever heard. And I think she's great. One Nate, tentatively two.
Joe: ...Fatter Older has earned his credentials.
Nate: How many Joes Down? A Thousand Joes Down?
Joe: What? No! Oh my god, I love Phoebe Bridgers! She is the best third of boygenius.
Nate: I think so too, I agree.
Joe: Um... usually toward the end of these conversations, I talk about sequels. Allegedly, there is a... what do you call that? A...
Nate: Spin-off?
Joe: Spin-off! Coming out.
Nate: Yes.
Joe: You're familiar?
Nate: I am familiar.
Joe: The Jesus Rolls. What do we think that's about?
Nate: I think, if it comes out, it has the potential to go down in history as one of the greatest blunders—
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: —and one of the greatest besmirchings of a legacy in the history of film. The reason the Jesus is funny: number one, John Turturro is a fucking freak in this movie. He is out of his mind funny in this movie. And the little tweaks about him—the fact that he wears a hairnet, the fact that he wears a purple jumpsuit, the fact that his partner, Glen—no, Liam? Liam?
Joe: Sure.
Nate: When he's yelling at the guys, he goes, "You pulled a gun out in the lanes? Liam and me, we're gonna fuck your shit up." I think it's Liam.
Joe: That's the trivia we need.
Nate: Purple jumpsuit, licks the ball, gypsy kings, weird sexual bowling, pedophile... extremely funny. And there's nothing less funny than explaining a joke. To do a Jesus movie would be to explain the joke. He's in the movie for five minutes for a reason. It's because he's a collection of weird characteristics that look funny together, and that Turturro gave life to. Don't do two hours of it. And, like, the fucking Coen Brothers aren't even going to write it or direct it! This is all Turturro . This is a Turturro project.
Joe: This seems like a bad time to release a [movie in which] the protagonist is a child pedophile.
Nate: Yeah, right! The pederast movie! Well, I mean, that's interesting. So by virtue of it being a bad time to release that movie, it might be a good time to release that movie. But, I don't think this is the movie that would... whatever the "pederast movie" is, I don't think this will be it. I preemptively disavow and disown any spin-offs or sequels to The Big Lebowski.
Joe: No "Your Favorite Movie Sequels"!
Nate: No.
Joe: And there's no sequel in this. There's no legit spin-off to this.
Nate: I don't think there is. I think, again... going back to the whole inspiration being these Raymond Chandler novels from the '50s and '60s. Recurring characters—I think Raymond Chandler was the character, and Philip Marlowe was the author. No, Chandler was the writer. Marlowe was the character. And there were a number of different stories with Philip Marlowe getting into scrapes. So in that sense, you could do another Big Lebowski, if the Dude is your detective, wrapped up in this sunshine world of big money and fast women. You could conceivably do it! But, I think that part of what makes this such a good movie is that it doesn't explain any of the jokes. Like I was saying about the Jesus, things are just funny because they are funny, and the less time spent observing them, the better the joke holds up. Which might ultimately be why I think the fucking festival circuit is such a clown show. The reason this shit is funny is because we're not explaining it to each other, we just know that it's funny. The minute you start trying to explain why the jokes are good, you're fucked. I can tell you that part of the appeal of this movie is that... the Dude is at a grocery store writing a check for $.69, and here's George Bush on the TV saying "This aggression against Kuwait will not stand." And then later tells "The Big" Lebowski, "this aggression will not stand." Like, that is funny.
Joe: It ties back to what you said earlier about the Dude being a mirror.
Nate: Right, that is funny stuff, but if you have to explain, "So, he saw that earlier, and that's why he said that," it's not funny. So I think to do it again would be to explain the joke. Let's let the joke be good, and let people figure the joke out for themselves.
Joe: It's a general rule of comedy.
Nate: It is. Listen, as a man who's seen 5000 improv shows, I think I've learned a thing or two.
Joe: [laughter] And have done stand-up!
Nate: [pause] Let's not talk about that now. I think the less said about that... you no longer have my consent to record.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: That's not true, you still have my consent. It's a great fucking movie, everyone should see it. What did you think of it? Had you seen it before?
Joe: I had seen it before, but in a lax, it's-on-cable type of situation.
Nate: So sitting there really watching it, what did you make of it? Really paying attention to it.
Joe: That it was a fucking shaggy-ass-dog story, that, I guess—consistent with the entertainment that I enjoy—it's more about the journey than the destination? If we're gonna compare The Big Lebowski to Infinite Jest—
Nate: [laughter]
Joe: —that's where they compare. In that, like, when you're watching or reading it, this is enjoyable, this is funny, this is intriguing. And when it ends—and The Big Lebowski literally ends with the narrator saying "fuck it, this is over"—I don't think that is detrimental to the story itself.
Nate: I wanna tell you, after watching this movie—I've seen this movie dozens of times—and I've given some thought to it. And I think I know what my favorite joke is.
Joe: Please.
Nate: My favorite joke is in the beginning of the movie, where Sam Elliott is doing this voice-over, about "Sometimes there's a man for his time and place." There's this very dramatic voice-over about introducing a hero, which are undercut with scenes of a guy in a bathrobe, looking at milk, sniffing milk, trying different milks at the grocery store. And he goes to pay for the milk, and he's writing a check to pay for the milk. And all the while, this voice-over is getting more and more grandiose, until it starts to turn on itself, and he goes, "Ah, I lost my train of thought." But my favorite part is when he's introducing this character, looking at the Dude, and he goes, "Sometimes there's a man—and I'm talking about the Dude here." [laughter] And it just fucking kills me, this little one-liner of like, "Yes, of course you're talking about the guy we just watched. Yeah, we know! We get it!" But again, I'm explaining the joke to you, but those little things kill me. Every time I watch it, I find more shit like that, that is like so fucking funny to me. It's the kind of thing you can watch it 25, 30 times because there's just so much to get out of it.
Joe: And that's ultimately the point, it's just a movie with a bunch of small moments.
Nate: This is why you can watch it during the holidays, because there's always something new to find, man! It's like you're unwrapping a present every time you watch it on the holiday.
Joe: I'm trying to picture the A****' house... Okay, so was, like, your grandpa watching the bare-chested woman on the trampoline?
Nate: [laughter] So, I'm trying to remember... I forget how my father came to find this movie, but he was like, "Let's watch The Big Lebowski." And we watched it—my two brothers and I, my mother, and my father—we all watched it. And, ya know, my parents laughed a lot. I think I fell asleep the first time I was watching it. I was in high school, I was probably a fourteen- or fifteen-year-old kid. It's a hard movie, when you're fourteen or fifteen, to follow. Because there's no plot. And you keep being like, "Okay, when's this all going to make sense?" And it never does. And my parents were like "That was good, but, like, weird?" and my dad was like, "Yeah... I think I'm gonna watch it again." And that same weekend, he watched it, and was like, "Oh, I get it, it's way better now." I think it was one of the first VHS cassettes we owned in the house. It was one of the first DVDs we bought when we upgraded to DVD. And it was kind of like... he kept watching it, and by osmosis, we kept watching it with him. To the point where, whenever we got together, which was usually the holidays, it would be like, "Well, it's nine o'clock, we did the Christmas presents, we did the dinner"—
Joe: This is literally Christmas Eve?!
Nate: Christmas Eve!
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: Honestly! The way people would watch It's a Wonderful Life. My parents would have Bailey's, we'd have tea and hot chocolate—
Joe: So you wouldn't put out milk and cookies, you'd put out a white russian...? [laughter]
Nate: [laughter] Yeah, a white russian, and like, a roach clip! And it would be a thing we would watch that was funny, until we got tired and went to sleep for Christmas. But then it kept going. The other movie we would watch a lot on the holidays was Galaxy Quest. Many Christmas Eves watching The Big Lebowski and Galaxy Quest.
Joe: Together?
Nate: Not usually back-to-back. Usually it was one or the other. But my dad went on a big Galaxy Quest kick. Like, "Fine, dad, whatever you want! You bought the Christmas gifts, dad, whatever you wanna put on!"
Joe: Does your Dad emulate the Dude on the other 364 days of the year?
Nate: No. My father is much more "The Big" Lebowski. [pause] It would crush him to hear that.
Joe: [laughter]
Nate: When he eventually reads this write-up... I hope you put this in, because it will destroy him to hear this. But the reality is, he is absolutely more Jeffrey Lebowski than he is the Dude. It's gonna hurt him, because he has the Dude bobblehead, he has the Dude sweater. He's like, when we get mad at each other, "You're being very un-Dude."All that stuff. But he's a high-powered attorney in the construction world! He's not a laizzes-faire shaggy dog.
Joe: He's not a Dudeist?
Nate: [laughter] No. No he is not.
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